Red Wine Malarkey

[jamesglewisf]

Fox News excerpt:The American Heart Association this week urged that "health care professionals downplay the popular but unproven supposition that drinking red wine can help ward off heart attacks."
But "unproven suppositions" don't stop the AHA from promoting other foods and beverages as "heart healthy." Some "unproven suppositions," as it turns out, are more lucrative and politically correct than others.

The AHA is referring to the so-called "French paradox," the hypothesis that drinking wine, particularly red wine, helps counteract alleged harmful effects of dietary cholesterol and saturated fats on the heart and vascular system. Many population surveys report lower rates of heart disease among Europeans who, despite a relatively high-fat, high-cholesterol diet, consume wine regularly.

It's been suggested that moderate alcohol consumption may increase blood levels of the "good" high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol. Another suggestion is that certain "phenolic" compounds in wine act as platelet inhibitors and antioxidants to reduce heart disease risk.

Nevertheless, wine consumption isn't proven to reduce heart disease risk. The population surveys only look at population, not individual characteristics. Unexplored factors like genetics and lifestyle are not fully considered in the population surveys and could explain the French paradox.

The French paradox remains controversial, and the AHA is correct to point out that there is no firm scientific basis for advocating alcohol consumption to reduce heart disease risk. http://www.foxnews.com/science/junkscience/index.sml

Grrrrrr...I can't tell you how many of my wino friends like to go off on how good it is for you to drink red wine. Now it turns out that it is all a bunch of malarkey that is not based on any real scientific studies.

[Zephyrus]

I don't know if it's true or not, like the article says they explored and compared entire populations, rather than individual cases...these studies would seem to imply that there is a decrease in heart attacks when comparing countries where wine is drunk often to those where it is not a habit.

As for those claiming that wine is good for you just as an excuse to get drunk, that's a whole load of balloney :) You don't see half of France drunk in the streets every day! {toothy}

[nb]

That doesn't change the fact that a glass of fine (red or white) wine is true pleasure.

[jamesglewisf]

Originally posted by nb
That doesn't change the fact that a glass of fine (red or white) wine is true pleasure. Agreed. Just don't drink it because it's supposedly good for you.

I'm glad they finally came out and officially admitted that this is a bunch of hogwash. Do you know how much the sales of red wine increased after they started publishing that junk science? I remember reading a WSJ article, and it was incredible.

[Nudnik]

Nb: That doesn't change the fact that a glass of fine (red or white) wine is true pleasure.
I agree. Let’s say that wine is “neutral” for the heart. I’d rather had a glass or two.

Jim, I would not call it ‘junk science’ based on a single report. Reasons:
1. Wine or not, something protects the French. Perhaps, wine.
2. The 'protection factor' has biochemical grounds, i.e. it can be easily explained. The same factor (s) was (were) found in juice and grapes. See below.
3. I saw reports that state that grape juice and even raw grapes possess the same protective qualities. Guess what? These reports were never as widely promoted as ‘drink wine’ reports.
4. Let’s buy wineries’ stock and drink juice;). We’ll fulfill our dreams: we will be rich and healthy! ;)

[blinc]

You know, I saw a very similar story come out about 6 years ago and saw a special on TLC
(I think it was). A study done on italians... specifically this one Italian family who had a very low rate of heart disease. At the time, they also attributed the good health of the entire family line to the possibly the fact that they had wine with every evening meal. Perosnally, I think it had to do more with a genetic factor in that case, rather then the fact that they drank wine, but who knows? Grape juice! Yummy! {raisin}

[kezzer]

I don't know, I'm sure in a few years they'll tell us it's good again. Like eggs, years back weren't they saying how horrible eggs were for us from the cholesterol and stuff. Now eggs are perfectly healthy as long as we eat them in moderation. I think moderation is always the key word.

[jamesglewisf]

There are a host of factors that could be producing the results, as stated in this article at Health Central (http://www.healthcentral.com/news/newsfulltext.cfm?id=47478&StoryType=Reutersnews):But it remains unclear whether components in wine or the heart-healthy lifestyles of wine lovers are behind this boost in cardiac protection, say researchers writing in the January 23 issue of Circulation, a journal of the American Heart Association (AHA).

Wine drinkers, for example, tend to be thinner, to exercise more and to drink with meals, all of which may help remove artery-clogging fats from their bloodstreams, they explain.This is why most researchers put more faith in randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies. It is why Fox News published the story on their Junk Science page, and why I call it malarkey.

[Zephyrus]

The genetic factor could definitely be very important in the whole issue. But I have heard that the European populations are very closely related genetically, so even if genes are an important factor, it is probably the wine that is the variable in the whole equation. We have populations that regularly consume wine, and those that do not, and we make comparisons and find some differences...

[Military Mom]

Way too many variables in these so called studies for them to be accurate. Nowadays, nearly anyone can get a grant to do research to come up with a desired conclusion.

We all know this at least - wine, like anything, is best used in moderation. Too many potato chips (yes, even the bbq ones we all love) will compromise your health as well. It's called "common sense" lol.

I'm a rebel - I prefer white zinfandel myself. I have yet to find a red that I really like. Any suggestions? {toothy}

mm

[Nudnik]

I have a theory. Let’s call it Nudnik’s Sunday Morning Theory (NSMT).
Some people are nervous: they want to live forever, but they know about heart disease. So, some of them avoid any stress, they exercise, eat “right”, and die at about the same age their parents did. Others just drink hard liquor and anything else which would help them to forget that life sucks. Still other know the latter, know about all dangers, and do not give a hoot. They are contend to have fun, to drink wine and to eat in moderation, to have otherwise pleasant life and to die on time. As a result, their hearts (and souls) are healthy.

[keithster]

This may sound a bit harsh, but I've come to the conclusion that the only reason to drink an alcoholic beverage is for the alcohol.

Stick with me. :) I have some reasons for this belief.

I used to drink a lot of beer and dabbled in wine and hard liquor, so I'm not coming to this as someone without any experience. Up front, I'll admit that I do have a beer once in a while, and I admit it's most often to relax.

A lot of people I know "love" the taste of their favorite adult beverage. A few years ago, we lined up a bunch of different beers in unmarked glasses and let everyone taste test. No one picked their "favorite" beer, which told me that they were going more by advertising than by actual taste. The funny thing was the no one switched after the taste test.

As far as taste goes, I can think of a lot of things that taste better than alcoholic beverages. Fresh squeezed juices are my favorites. Given the choice between a beer and a glass of fresh-squeezed orange juice, it's no contest.

In my own experience, as I learned more and more healthy ways to deal with stress and life's valleys, my drinking started going away. At some point, it was very difficult to tolerate the taste to get the buzz.

My gosh we used to drink some awful beer. We didn't care. Get it ice cold so you couldn't taste it and go for the nice buzz.

Okay, I've got on my asbestos underwear. Flame away. :)

[Nudnik]

You broadened the discussion, but as long as Blinc and Jim are silent, the mice will have their time ;).
This one thinks you are right. Having said that, I’d add that hard liquor gets us there faster. And some taste good (as a shot, not as a beverage competing with OJ). Then there is an ocean of beers and wines. I like beer, I like wine. Many varieties of the latter. And if they say that some are also good for your heart, I can stick with them: there are others which taste as good, but I can find many “healing” wines which agree with me. To your health!

[Military Mom]

Keith,

I agree wholeheartedly that usually, the main motivator behind having a drink is for the effect of the alcohol.

But, I feel that if someone has only one, they may honestly not be out for the effects. We all know that most alcohol is an acquired taste - the first time we try beer or wine or vodka (even in a mixed drink) we think it's GROSS! But as time goes on, we develop a taste for it, and get to know how it will affect us in certain quantities. Once we get to that point, then it's safe to say that some people, on occasion do enjoy the "adult" (teehee, I'm not gonna go there) beverage for the taste alone. I know I have on several occasions. :)

Now here's the question of the day - some people believe that if they drink a certain type of alcohol that it makes them behave differently than other types do. For instance, usually, when I drink tequilla (particularly shots!) I find that I get into fights/trouble/bad situations pretty easily. Whereas with shots of Goldschlager, I become pleasantly, ahem, well, {blush}, you know. Is it just me? Is it a chemical thing or a psychological thing or both or what?

Weird, huh? lol

mm

[Zephyrus]

MM, I think you have a point there. You're never drinking pure ethanol anyway, there's always some more stuff in it which comes from the brewing and destilling. So it's quite possible that the combination of chemicals in the drinks have different effects on different people, since we all react to the same thing in many ways.

It's popular belief that mixing and matching drinks will make you a lot more drunk a lot faster, and I won't even mention the day after...do you think that there is any warrant to this? I mean, after all, it's the ethanol in the drink which makes you drunk in the first place!! This could be tied to MM's theory...

[keithster]

MM,

It's the acquired taste thing that's always, for lack of a better word, amused me. We have to sort of force our body to accept something that it initially (probably for good reason) rejects. Cigarettes are like that. I just couldn't get past the hacking and coughing enough for my body to adjust and never acquired that taste.

I know that there are those who make a fine, fine whiskey and that it's an art that can be appreciated. But anymore, I can't get past my initial desire to urp that would allow me to be discerning about whiskeys. Beer I can still guage, but that's probably because that was my main poison years ago.

I think you're right about different types of drinks. Wine puts me to sleep. Beer mellows me out. Tequilla... we won't even go there. Whiskey was a roudy one for me. It was good at the "everyone's invited" wedding dances in the school gym. I did some crazy things after some whiskey.

It must be a chemical thing. Someone probably knows, but I think the alcohols in various drinks have different molecular structures and would therefore affect the body differently.

[Nudnik]

Keith, FWIW: I was about 13, the parents were away and the situation offered itself: I tried wine and even vodka. I liked it. Some of my “fellow first-timers” (of the same age) liked it, too and some did not (to the point of puking). Years later, some of us became heavy social drinkers, some drank less, some did not drink. One, who did not like it first, “acquired” the taste, so much so, that he got into a serious car accident, because of drunk driving, 20 years later. So, I guess you are right, the taste can be acquired. But I, apparently, was born with it. And did not become a heavy drinker. In other words, there is “taste”, and there is addiction.
On the scientific level, there is research into general addiction, alcohol-breaking enzymes, etc. which might shed light on all that, but I am too lazy to perform the search.
As far as “different molecular structures”. I would not argue that vodkas (almost pure diluted ethanol), tequila, and wine have different taste because of admixture of other substances, but it is generally accepted that by itself, ethanol is capable to explain all the observed effects of all alcoholic beverages.

[Military Mom]

Nudnick, lol - he comes right out and admits he's too lazy to do the research haha!

There have been quite a few drinks I have not had to force myself to try. Mixed drinks - especially the fruity umbrellas and cherries type drinks are the obvious ones. Believe it or not, I loved rum and coke at the tender age of four (got ahold of mom's glass and sipped it before she caught me, not knowing any better. She allowed me sips on occasion, I don't think that hurts anything.) And I still love a good Captain and Coke. I don't see it as any different than getting to like new and different types of foods, Keith. Your palate enables you to discern unances and complexities that once seemed like a terrible jumble, and you develop preferences with both food and alcohol.

About the mixing thing - oh yes, I do believe that you can make yourself quite sick a lot more easily when you mix. Ever hear the saying "Beer before liquor, never sicker; liquor before beer, never fear"? Wonder why that came about...