Gore said homosexualtiy is 'abnormal' and 'wrong'

[jamesglewisf]

Ooops. But that was in 1981, 1984, and 1988 for other elections.

Check out the article at the Drudge Report (http://drudgereport.com/gay.htm).
In 1981, Gore decried homosexuality during a town meeting, according to eyewitnesses and press accounts of the session.

When one participant asked Gore about homosexuality -- which the man described as a "sin" -- Gore responded that homosexuality is an abnormality which should be discouraged. "I think it is wrong," Gore explained to the audience. "It is not just another normal optional lifestyle."
The Tennessean reported on 10/28/84 that Gore told the reporter, "I do not believe it is simply an acceptable alternative that society should affirm." Yikes!

In 2000, Gore said: "The time has come to widen the circle of fairness and dignity to include our brothers, sisters, friends, and neighbors in the gay and lesbian community. And if you entrust me with Presidency, I will fight for the basic fairness and opportunity you deserve."
But back on 2/3/1988 when asked by the [i]Chattanooga Times and Free Press[/] what he thought about two homosexual activists winning positions on the Gore slate during 2 Georgia congressional district caucuses that year, Gore said,We did not know that that was going to take place. We are examining the situation now to see what the options are... we want delegates who are loyal to my candidacy and who will not pursue another agenda.

[jamesglewisf]

Yikes. Did he flip-flop this year? Did he change his mind this year? Is he just saying whatever it takes to get elected this year? What do you think?

[TWTCommish]

This is going to hurt him a bit more - but overall I think he'll just state that he made a mistake and has changed his mind with age - no big whoop. Definetly interesting stuff, though.

[Anat]

You lucky Americans! That's what's bothering you about a candidate :)

Politicians are known for "changing their minds" aren't they? There's a theory in political science which says that a politician running for presidency will always attempt to present the views of what he considers to be the average voter - the median voter, I think it was.

If the polls say that the average voter has changed his/her views, so must the politician...

I guess Gore's change of views really reflects a change in American society and I think that's okay really.

Homosexuality is less of an issue over here. The military is relatively liberal about it and I have a feeling it effects the rest of public.


Anat.

[TWTCommish]

Fair enough, but for me gays in the military present a major problem. You just can't risk sexual tension in such a sensitive situation.

[Anat]

Most of the people serving in the army (any army I think) are staff people. It's not like their fighting along side each other all the time - they come to the office in the morning and leave in the afternoon, same as any civilain job.

The most famous case in Israel was of a Colonel who discovered his sexual identity late in life, left his wife and moved in with a male partner.

This colonel than died (of cancer I think) and his partner claimed compensation from the military as a woman partner would have (you can get something after you live with a partner for 3 years, even if you're not married). Anyway, the army refused to pay him and he took it to the supreme court and won!

Ever since, the military has accepted the court's guidance and became more tolerant towards gay people. I believe that the policy today is not to ask a recruit as to his/her sexual preferences. If they choose to, they can ask to be released from service because they're gay and they feel intimidated by the military experience. People often know if someone's gay and no one seems to mind where I come from (wicked Tel Aviv :)).

Anyway, this whole story was to say that the colonel was a doctor in the general staff and I can't see how there's any problem with his being gay. It's an office job after all. There would be a lot more (or at least no less) sexual tension between men and women working together in the army (or in an office for that matter).


What do you think?

Anat

[cbreeze]

Excuse me for getting side tracked here, but this issue has some home based points for me.

20 years ago, fresh out of high school, my best friend joined the air force. By doing so, he turned down a very high paying job. But it was worth it to him, because he wanted to do something to show his pride for our country. While he was in the air force, he made a lot of friends because he was a very caring and insightful person. He tried to fit in with the other “guys”, as way of making life a little more enjoyable for him while away from his family…….but he couldn’t do everything they believed to be morally okay. (My friend referred to it as womanizing, and degrading.)
as a result of his not participating in their events, they came to the conclusion that he was gay. There was a dead end investigation, but none the less, he was still dis-charged from the air force and his dream. All due to accusations.
Unfortunatly my friend and I didn’t talk about this matter much, as he was murdered 2 weeks after his didcharge. He was killed by a drunk driver who ran a stop sign, and who had a tapped keg in the back of his truck. This drunk driver had a previous alcohol conviction, and to this day that driver has yet to serve any time or be convicted of any crime. ( too ironic to try to understand). It’s not alright to have sex with the same sex, but it’s alright to kill another person….
To hear some people speak of gays, they make them sound like preditators…ready to attack any male that may be standing next to them. It makes me wonder if those same people are unsure of their own sexuality.
I’m almost sure that I’m going to hear what the bible has to say about gay people. And though I don’t go to Church, I do believe in god……..and I believe that god did not put us here to judge or be bigots….it is gods job to do the judging. There are a lot of this in this world that I don’t agree with, but I don’t believe that is my place to expect everbody to have the same morals that I do. I do believe that everybody should take take responsibility for their actions, and be accountable if their actions are bring harm to another live….but why should my sexual preference bring any harm your way?
In all honesty, I have known quite a few gay people, and I would feel a lot safer with some of them at the front line, than I would with a few the straight men that I know. They are all equal, and obviously had all the same training, so what makes straight men any better than gay men? And why do so many straight guys in the military find it hard to be friends with gay guys…because they are afraid that their ego will get bruised by the other guys that don’t approve.

My friend never did find out his sexual preference, but he was still punished for something that had no bearing on his performance as a human being.

Just a thought, I didn’t care much for Rich on Survivor, but he obviously had what was needed to walk away with the $. And who was his best friend while on the island, Rudy….the guy that hated homosexuals, and was worried about what his old re-tired military friends were going to think.

And what about the people that God created with both male and female anotomy......if it is our job to judge, and decided what other people can or cannot do with their life...what do we do with them?

I've only had 3 hours sleep since saturday, and
I don't have time to back and edit this, so in advance, i apologise for the bad grammer and spelling and punctuation.
but not for my opinion.

[Anat]

cbreeze - I agree with you. I don't think that there's any trouble with being gay. I know several soldiers and officers who are gay and quite open about it (had two of them in unit) - they're great people and their level of professionalism has nothing to do with their sexual orientations.

I'm also proud to say that on the last pride day, there were several IDF gay combat soldiers on TV, telling openly about their sexual preference. This sort of open mindness was among the thing that may be proud to serve in the IDF (which I have for seven years).

Another point - if you think sexual tension is a problem - what do you say about men and women serving together in combat?

Anat

[TWTCommish]

I think ANY situation where sexual tension is present is a bad idea. The problem is, gay men cannot serve with women because then the women would likely have a problem with it.

If they're going to be in the army, it cannot be directly related to combat. The chance is too great.

CBreeze: I am not bigoted for calling being a homosexual immoral. God says do not judge - but you're taking that the wrong way. Do you really think that means we can't tell other people that we think they're sinning? What if a friend lies and you're upset about it, is it "judging" him to say so?

No, it's not: that line is obviously meant to say that you should not judge them ultimately...as in, in most cases, you cannot declare someone evil, or something like that. That is a wide, sweeping accusation and whether or not it's true can only be known by God.

By the way, my mother had a group of very close friends in high school...two of them (both men) have now revealed themselves to be gay. Both are "iffy" about it: they don't know whether they like it or not, and it bothers them both. I respect them more for this, because obviously I believe them feeling doubt in their homosexuality is natural because I do not believe homosexuality is natural.

Here's what I don't like: people in the San Francisco gay pride parade who wear leather pants with pieces missing, exposing themselves. People on floats in that parade wearing dog collars down on all fours...people who flaunt it around and try to act superior. People who say "I'm here, and I'm queer"...

...(to bother a line from a friend): do I go around proclaiming that I'm straight? I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle...however if the homosexual can can respect my views as well, and does not do any of the aforementioned things, I can easily respect them.

I hope this clears a few things up. And I certainly hope you realize that I'm nowhere near a bigot. :)

[Anat]

Chris,

gay men cannot serve with women because then the women would likely have a problem with it.

I didn't get that part - would you mind elaborating?

Anat

[TWTCommish]

I don't know any women who would be comfortable naked in front of a man in showers and bunking with them and such, gay or not.

[cbreeze]

I have never been much for debates, because it makes me feel like *my opinion is better than yours*. And that is not at all what I am saying. But what I am saying is, what makes others opinions of homosexuality, more *correct* than the homosexual himself? Especially to the point where they are not *allowed* to persue their dreams.

As for the leather pants, and dog collar issue, I do agree there. But as you said, on a float for the gay rights...they are performing. Just like the guy wearing a Snoopy outfit in the Thanksgiving day parade. I don't believe that they are doing these things to hurt anybody, and I do think some of them go too far....but that is who they are, and what is wrong with being proud of it. Too bad more people aren't proud of who they are. And if the way they act is so offensive, then where do we draw the line....I have taken my kids to see disney movies, and while waiting at the snack bar line, seen some women with skirts so short, and shirts so high....they may as well have been naked. Yes, I found it distasteful, but not immoral. And certinaly not a reason to have her removed from the theater.

As for the sexual tension, whose tension is it, and why is it there?

And as far as judging goes, yes i think it is wrong. I also believe that it is wrong of you to call anybody a sinner over their sexual preferences. God is who we have to answer to in the end, and he is the one who decides if we are indeed sinning. By which i also remember a priest telling me something along the lines of *we are born into sin*. I also remember him telling me....we have to live with our selves, and the decisions that we make in our live. If a friend of mine were to tell a lie, like to say he isn't gay when in fact he is, I would try to understand why he felt he had to lie in the first place, and no I wouldn't judge him. (my husband has lied to me several times, and no, i don't remeber judging him, i remember wondering *why*).

One thing that I am really curious about is....and excuse me if this is unappropiate....but what would you do if you woke up tonight with the desire of another male for a sex partner? Or if one day your son comes home and tells you that he is gay? I'm not wishing either of those on you, and I wouldn't want to have to face it myself....but the fact is, it can happen. These people do not wake up one day and decide to be gay. It is what is normal and natural for them. And I'm sure that more than 80% of the gay community have had their share of emotional stuggles over their own sexuality, so why should we have to impose our righteous believes on them...to the point where they are not *allowed* to live their live to the fullest. And I believe that some of these gay people fight for their rights for the same reason "normal" people fight for their rights....they get tired of just taking the judgments passed on them, and begin feeling like a trapped animal, so they fight back by displaying what they are proud of. Themselves!

Most, and I want to say ALL, homosexuals respect the heterosexual lifestyle....that's why I'm so mystified with this issue to begin with. I have never heard about a gay person pushing his/her sexuality on another person the way we *normal* people do. (verbally or sexually). I have never heard of a case where a homosexual killed or even assulted a person for being straight. I have never even heard of a homosexual bar asking a *straight* patron to leave. But we *normal* people think that we are the superior ones, and have the *right* to discharge a very good soldier, and protector of our country because of his sexual lifestyle.

As for your shower theory....I very much agree with you on that point. But only if he has made any advances on you. And in that case, I would suggest being moved to another unit. But as I said before, I don't believe that gay is another defination of preditator. They don't want to draw attention to themselves, and in the military, I'm sure they try to stay in the closet.

Have you ever wondered why so many teen age boys like to dress up as girls for halloween. I don't believe that they are on the road to *gay-hood*, but I think that most males, at some point in their lives, are curious about their sexuality, and halloween is a *safe* time to express that curiosity.

It's sad to also think that so many young men find it easier to end their lives, than to try to deal with the pressures from society about not being NORMAL. And when the Military feels that it is their *right* to destroy a mans dream, due to his sexuality, I feel that they are equally responsible for that MANS death.

Maybe the day that God himself stands before me and tells me that it is my job to judge anothers morals, or sexual preference, then I will stand beside you on *your* convictions....but until then, I will stand behind mine.

America can be a wonderful place.......we are not only *allowed* to have our own opinions, but also expess them. And as far as your opinions go, I have a lot of respect for them, because they are yours. But like I said earlier, I'm not into debates, they make me feel like I'm trying to manipulate your thoughts, and I don't want to do that to anybody. So for now, I would like to say, thank you for sharing your views, you've given me some things to consider that I didn't realize this morning.

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by cbreeze

But what I am saying is, what makes others opinions of homosexuality, more *correct* than the homosexual himself? Especially to the point where they are not *allowed* to persue their dreams.


What makes me correct? Because I believe in God and his feelings towards this are clear-cut and simple. I think I'm right...what's wrong with that? We all think we're right; if we didn't, we would think something else.


Originally posted by cbreeze

As for the leather pants, and dog collar issue, I do agree there. But as you said, on a float for the gay rights...they are performing. Just like the guy wearing a Snoopy outfit in the Thanksgiving day parade. I don't believe that they are doing these things to hurt anybody, and I do think some of them go too far....but that is who they are, and what is wrong with being proud of it.


Just like the guy in the Snoopy outfit? Uh, no...they are not performing - they are flaunting and acting inappropriate no matter what their sexual preference. What's wrong with being proud of who you are? Everything! We're all sinners - and homosexuality is a sin, and therefore there is a problem with being proud of it.

Originally posted by cbreeze

As for the sexual tension, whose tension is it, and why is it there?


Tension because a gay man may very well feel sexual feelings towards other men in the military - it's not worth the risk. When you have peopel who have no interest in each other romantically, you eliminate a possible problem.


Originally posted by cbreeze

And as far as judging goes, yes i think it is wrong. I also believe that it is wrong of you to call anybody a sinner over their sexual preferences. God is who we have to answer to in the end, and he is the one who decides if we are indeed sinning.


You're not getting it I'm afraid: do you actually believe if, for example, I have a brother, and he lies, and I know it, that it's WRONG for me to tell him I do not approve? To tell him it's wrong? I don't think so...you're taking the verse the wrong way. If it's taken the way you're taking it, it contradicts other passages.

Judging is making judgements what you can't possibly know of - if someone lies, you know it's wrong, you know it's a sin, and the Bible does not tell you that it's wrong to condemn it.



Originally posted by cbreeze

One thing that I am really curious about is....and excuse me if this is unappropiate....but what would you do if you woke up tonight with the desire of another male for a sex partner? Or if one day your son comes home and tells you that he is gay? I'm not wishing either of those on you, and I wouldn't want to have to face it myself....but the fact is, it can happen. These people do not wake up one day and decide to be gay.


I disagree - they do make a decision, whether they realize it or not. I do not think it is natural at all - I'm a Christian who believes the Bible, yet you seem shocked that I dissaprove of homosexuality and think it's un-natural. If you believe in the Bible, you have to noice but to agree - it's one or the other.

If I woke up with attraction to a man, I don't know what I would do. I would certainly feel ashamed. If the same thing happened to my son, I would be ashamed, and I would still love him, and assuming he did not make a fool out of himself or flaunt it around, I would respect him as well.

I do, however, believe that since it's not natural, something must spur it. If I had a son who decided to be gay, the fault would likely lie in his childhood somewhere; possibly a shortcoming on my part.

Originally posted by cbreeze

It is what is normal and natural for them.


You're right, sin is normal and natural for both them and us.

Originally posted by cbreeze

Most, and I want to say ALL, homosexuals respect the heterosexual lifestyle....that's why I'm so mystified with this issue to begin with. I have never heard about a gay person pushing his/her sexuality on another person the way we *normal* people do. (verbally or sexually).

No, they don't push their homosexuality on others, but you cannot tell me there are not those who feel superior. It's supposedly "cool" now...that's why Anne Heche got together with Ellen, then claimed she wasn't really gay, and then says she is...

Originally posted by cbreeze

I have never heard of a case where a homosexual killed or even assulted a person for being straight. I have never even heard of a homosexual bar asking a *straight* patron to leave. But we *normal* people think that we are the superior ones, and have the *right* to discharge a very good soldier, and protector of our country because of his sexual lifestyle.


Sexual tension, or even the POSSIBILITY of sexual tension, is a risk that does not need to be taken, and should not be taken when the military is involved. It's the same principle that says we don't have male councils leading girl scout troops, or vice-versa. It's not likely anything will happen, but it COULD, and it could really mess things up when it does.

Originally posted by cbreeze

As for your shower theory....I very much agree with you on that point. But only if he has made any advances on you. And in that case, I would suggest being moved to another unit. But as I said before, I don't believe that gay is another defination of preditator. They don't want to draw attention to themselves, and in the military, I'm sure they try to stay in the closet.


Just to clear things up: I'm not even an adult yet, I'm not in the military, and I don't have a gay man making advances towards me. :) Gay people are not necessarily predators, but they are sinners...I am a sinner as well, but I think it's a bigger problem for them, since it's a major part of their life.

Originally posted by cbreeze

Have you ever wondered why so many teen age boys like to dress up as girls for halloween. I don't believe that they are on the road to *gay-hood*, but I think that most males, at some point in their lives, are curious about their sexuality, and halloween is a *safe* time to express that curiosity.


Uh, I don't know what neighborhood you live in :) Curious about your sexuality? Yes, that's normal - homosexuality, however, is not. Besides, it's usually done with goofy wigs and over-sized features - it's a joke, not a cry for help or anything.

I know what you'll say: "but who says one of us is right over the other?" - well, the truth does. One of us is likely right - we don't know who. I'm not claiming my views as the only possible way things can be - but it is my opinion and belief as a person and Christian, so there's nothing wrong with me saying so.

Originally posted by cbreeze

It's sad to also think that so many young men find it easier to end their lives, than to try to deal with the pressures from society about not being NORMAL. And when the Military feels that it is their *right* to destroy a mans dream, due to his sexuality, I feel that they are equally responsible for that MANS death.


I don't - anyone who is willing to commit suicide has many problems...we all feel depressed, but I don't think you or me could EVER force ourselves to commit suicide.


Originally posted by cbreeze

Maybe the day that God himself stands before me and tells me that it is my job to judge anothers morals, or sexual preference, then I will stand beside you on *your* convictions....but until then, I will stand behind mine.


I cannot tell by your comments whether or not you believe in the Bible - but if you do, then you cannot hold the views you are now holding. If God means by "not judging" that we cannot correct others and tell them they are sinning, then much of the Bible is in violation of itself.

By the way, the verse in question, I believe, is "judge not lest ye be judged", which means "do not judge someone if you yourself are not fit to be judged"...I am a sinner, but lead a Christian lifestyle and believe in Him and what He did for me. The same cannot be said for homosexuals.

[Anat]

Well, at least the thread go interesting. I thought you were looking for controversy, weren't you Chris :)?

I think I have a question for you, but I'll open a thread in the religion forum about it.

Anat

[TWTCommish]

I'll go check for it soon. :) And yeah, anyone who knows me knew that it was only a matter of time before a thread like this started. :D

[cbreeze]

TWTCommish,

This has been interesting....to say the least. And I really am proud of you for having such stong convictions at your age. Even if I didn't believe in what you belive in, I would be proud to have you for a son. (I hope that was okay to say).

You have not changed *my* beliefs on "gays in the military", which I hope you weren't trying to do, but by stating your opinion, you have showed me that there is more to consider than just the knowledge on hand. (Everybodys opinions count, even if they are not agreed with).

About 5 years ago, a friend of the family turned his back on his son for being gay...though it did not affect my life directly, it did hurt me to see both him and and his son going through such agony over this issue. There was never a doubt that he loved his son, (his misery showed his loved)but he thought that since God didn't accecpt homosexuality, that he would be sinning if he did...so he thought he was doing the right thing by turning his back on his son. I was discussing this thread to his father yesterday, and guess what...he called his son lastnight. (they haven't talked in years, and it went great for the both of them). So, I want to thank you for your contributation in reuniting their family.

Thanks again, and have a good day.....

BTW, No I am not gay, nor am I a whale or a tree, or a homless person, but I do have opinions about all of those as well....and anybody who knows me, knows that I have a tendency of defending what I consider the underdog...

[TWTCommish]

No offense taken - although if I were your son I would have been raised under different beliefs, so I might be someone totally different. :)

Glad to hear I played a role, albeit an indirect one, in that reunion. I certainly do not defend turning your son away under those circumstances. When I hear someone say they're now gay, I think of it as a shame more than anything else, and will sometimes pray for them to see what I believe to be God's light on the matter.

And no, I wasn't necessarily trying to change anyone's mind on the matter (it's nearly impossible and I do it very rarely), I've been debating things like this online long enough to know better. Public debates are about swaying silent independents listening, and sticking up for your beliefs, and little else.

I've had a very nice time, God bless. :)

[Military Mom]

Where do I start?

Gays in the military. Sexual tension. What on Earth makes people think that there is not already sexual tension in the ranks? I don't think you'd really give a hoot if the guy fighting beside you was wearing orange halloween boxer shorts, much less how he has sex or who with. The idea is to get out alive, preferrably with all the limbs you began life with.

A person's being homosexual has absolutely nothing to do with his or her ability to serve our country. Gay or straight, it's obvious when you're swearing in that you are making an active committment to pick up a weapon to defend your country should that situaton ever arise. If you can't stand by that, then you have no business being in.

I have served in the military for about seven years now as a medic/nurse. I have served alongside homosexuals who make finer soldiers than quite a few straight soldiers I have known. They are just as dedicated, brave, and hardworking as anyone else. Those 'fags' have sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic - and what that comes down to is upholding your freedom under the first amendment to sit here and type away about how negatively you feel towards them.

As for any worries concerning actually having to share living space with a homosexual, I get such a chuckle! Why are so many straight men absolutely convinced that they could very likely be the central object of unbridled homosexual desire??? Are your buns that cute that no one, even gay men who know you are straight cannot control themselves? Now come on, this is meant in a kidding sarcastic way, not meant to be mean or nasty. :) Really, the joke is on you if you are the one thinking that - don't flatter yourself, lol! Honestly, even if a gay did hit on you, right in the middle of an isolated steamy shower somewhere, if you say no, then it's no. They don't like coming back for hopeless rejection anymore than the straight population does.

(Prison Rapes excluded - but those we'll let slide as a form of just due punishment for crimials who otherwise are recieveing three free hots and a cot, college credits and cable TV to boot.)

Ok Time for bed, I'm putting my soap box away for the night.

PS TWT, whatever you do - DON'T DROP THE SOAP! lol just kidding, dude

[TWTCommish]

Ewwwwwwwwwww :)

No, we don't think a gay man will actually become interested in pursuing a relationship with it. But let's face it: guys and girls alike look at whatever sex they're attracted to and size them up, and think "he/she is kinda cute"...I personally don't like the idea of a gay man thinking of me in that way.

Besides: straight men are uncomfortable an uptight around women, so it's not terribly un-natural for them to feel the same way around gays.

Sexual tension? Of course it exists! Straight men and women should not kind alongside each other either! The fact of the matter is that it creates the potential for another problem, and not even the slighest thing can be risked.

I revert to my earlier analogy: we don't send adult men out onto camping trips with teenage girl scouts...do we really believe these men are sexual abusers? No, but it's not a good idea to put people in situations like that, because something COULD go wrong.

[Military Mom]

TWT,

I can't relate. It wouldn't bother me if I knew another woman was looking at me in a sexual way. I have experimented before enough to know that I am secure about my feelings. A woman's touch is definately different than a man's. BUT only a man can touch my heart. (That's where Unseen2 comes in :)

[Military Mom]

TWT,

Y algo mas,

I give men more credit than that. Why in the world would a grown man suddenly turn into a battery operated outta control sex machine as soon as you get him in the wilderness with a bunch of nubile teenage Britteny Spears fans???

I dunno about you, but most men who are intelligent enough to be in a leadership position over teenagers will KNOW the consequences of such ludicrious actions and will stop themselves short of committing any felonies. Sheesh.

Plus I'd imagine they'd prefer the more mature body and psyche of a grown woman not donning an underoos Superwoman stretch training bra ....

Chris, I've heard plenty of talse of an older woman initialting a young teenage girl into the finer points of lesbianism ...

Run for your lives - no one is safe anywhere!!!

lol

Lighten up, Chris :)

MM

[TWTCommish]

You're saying it HASN'T happened? Male Scout leaders have sexually abused teenage boys, and supposedly it cannot happen with girls?

As I said before: the odds of it happening are slim, but it DOES happen sometimes, and COULD happen...I never said or even implied that an individual would lose self control in the woods, but some people do, and therefore there is the potential for a problem - whether dealing with a war or a child's life, you don't take those chances!

[utah007]

TWT I gotta side with Military Mom on this one. I'm a very happy practicing heterosexual male.
However I would fight alongside a female or a gay male any day. And yes I would shower with a gay male and not feel self concious... I am secure in my sexuality, period.
I had to chuckle when you brought up sexual tension though. Picture this... 200 male sailors in a submarine out on patrol for 6 MONTHS... Hmm... they must have to shave their palms alot... now THAT's tension if you ask me...
But saying gays shouldn't be allowed in the military is like saying women shouldn't be allowed to fight either. *shakes head* Its illogical. Men and women (yes even gays)work together in high stress conditions everyday and cope with the sexual tension. They can fight alongside each other just as well without letting sexual tension affect their professional duties... Because just like at work, when you're on the job, its all business... You learn really fast that those who let their carnal notions get in the way don't last, regardless of sexual preference.

I respect your viewpoint, however I find it much to narrow to sway my opinion.

[TTP]

I've read this whole thread now, and I don't think I'll take a stance anywhere on the issue because I honestly haven't thought about it enough to come up with an explination. I can say that I know who and what I am, I have enough stuff to worry about...no need for me worrying about what other people are doing.
I also just wanted to ask a question, "So what exactly can we do?" I mean it seems that no matter where we turn or go there is a possibility of something going wrong...so should we just all jump in our own bubbles and not interact with any other human being? No thank you, I'll take my chances.

[TWTCommish]

I don't think people are "getting it" - just because you wouldn't mind doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Yes, they do work alongside at their jobs, but it's quite a different things when people's LIVES are on the line - things don't get more stressful than that. And besides, in a war, plenty of people were drafted and don't want to be there. With a job, you made a choice.

So, I say again: why risk it? Sexual tension is THERE. It is a total fact. It is bound to happen at some point, so the debate should be non-existent. Why put people in a situation where that could happen?

Please don't reply with another "It would not bother me" or "They're not savages, they can control themselves"...that's not the issue! Men and women together would also bring problems...the fact of the matter is that something CAN go wrong with things like this, and when it comes to war, it just doesn't work.

[utah007]

A police officer doesn't put his/her life on the line? A construction worker, logger, etc... There are many jobs that people put their lives on the line everyday for because they choose to. And joining the army is STILL a choice, we don't have the draft anymore, so yeah it does relate pretty well...
*sighs*
You draw in sex as the WHOLE reason that you don't want them there, but that is such a SMALL distraction in the real world. There are other things that operate at a higher need level for someone in combat... #1.Gun Condition #2. Water #3. Food #4. Duck! :)
#5. Survival...
How cute your partner's butt happens to look is going to be WAY down the list I assure you! Despite Hollywood's attempt to convince you otherwise.

[TWTCommish]

Hollywood is very pro-gay, so I don't know what you mean by that.

No, it's not a major thing that will kill hundreds of people, but I think it will cause a couple problems, or at least COULD. Therefore: don't chance it.

Yes, a police officer does, but I don't like that either. The bottom line is that when people's safety is at risk in publicly-funded ventures, no possible distractions should b in the way! If a private business wants to hire gays alongside of straights, that's fine...it's their own choice.

[RoadRunner]

Yikes! How did this one get going again. Shame on you, utah007! ;)

[Debby]

I personaly don't see anything wrong with gays in the military, because they do need to fight for their country just the same as the straight people, but i do have mixed feelings about homosexuality....the bible clearly says it is wrong, and I beleive it is, but yet, I feel for those people who feel that they have been born the wrong sex, and cannot help their attraction to the same sex, i don't think we can judge them unless we are in their positions. This is a hard one. I think only God knows.

[Military Mom]

TWT,

I have one, easy to answer question for you - have you ever worked or even co-existed in a high-stress environment with a homosexual person?

Unless you have, it's really easy to pass a quick judgment and determine that gays would be less than desirable and less than effective in the military. I respect your morals and values. I understand that you are a deeply religios person and hold the interpretations of the Bible's teachings closely to your heart. You are a good person. But being a good person does not mean you need to shut others who don't live life by the principals which are guiding yours. You miss out on great opportunities to learn about life and humankind, and there is so much to be learned. :)

When I was on active duty in the Army, I worked in the Emergency Room WITH a gay man. He in time became a dear and close friend of mine. This soldier consistently maintained a high level of professionalism, and did his job better than anyone else did. So often, he was one of the calm ones in a trauma room full of spazzy doctors and nurses! We have unfortunately lost touch over the years, but I am willing to bet that he is continuing to hold down the fort (so to speak) wherever he is now.


I have also had the experience and privilege of working with one of the best and brightest ER Attending Physicians who also happened to be a lesbian. Also, numerous other health care professionals both in the military and civillian life. Funny, the only problems I have ever seen them encounter are with people who take issue with them on the basis of their sexual preferrence. Nevermind excellent job performance, they were more concerned with what the employee or soldier was doing after hours.

So, TWT, yes, gays can perform quite satisfactorily in stressful, military and civillian jobs. I have seen it happen. ;)

mm

[TWTCommish]

ARGHHH!

I'm sorry if I'm losing my cool here, but I've said it about a billion times, and no one has seemed to notice...

I'm *NOT* saying they are incapable of it, or that most of them will have problems! What I *AM* saying is that the odds themselves say that a problem or two will arise, and putting people in that position creates a type of risk - a possibility for trouble. I revert to my boy/girl scout analogy - why take the chance?

I don't need to work with a gay person to know that putting them in that situation creates the POTENTIAL for problems where there was no potential before - that's a simple fact. A lot of us, by the way, pass judgements without experiencing them ourselves - in this case it's totally factual.

[jamesglewisf]

[gentle nudge]

Hey, everybody. We're not getting anywhere on this topic. The thread really didn't have anything to do with homosexuality, it had to do with politicians flip-flopping on their positions when it was politically expedient. Let's get back on topic.

[/gentle nudge]

[Debby]

I think most politicians will say pretty much anything to get the votes, whether they actually beleive that way or not....it's sad.

[Military Mom]

Odds, scmodds, lol {fart}

Love ya, TWT

mm

[TWTCommish]

Uh, I don't understand what that means - but thanks, I think. :)

{fro}

[Military Mom]

PS Chris - where are your facts? I'd just like to see them in black and white, if you don't mind.

Educate me {dunce}

mm

[TWTCommish]

I'm not sure if I understand - an argument like this is not about facts, but rather probability - obviously if a gay person is placed in a situation where many members of "his opposite sex" are present, there is now one more thing that COULD (could! not will or probably will, COULD) happen to stir up trouble. Sounds like a fact to me.

[Military Mom]

Sorry Chris, that's what is well known as an ASSUMPTION.

Remember not to take any of my replies personally - I think you are a great person. I would just love to see you open that intelligent {idea} mind of yours - just a little.... to concepts beyond the pew.

(o:

mm

[TWTCommish]

Ugh, I'll try this again :P. Listen carefully. :)

Without a gay person present, there is a 0% chance of a sexual problem/or other such thing, with one there, there is a POSSIBILITY for it, where there was none before. See? That means that there is a risk, even if it's small.

[Military Mom]

Chris, honey, it can STILL happen ANYWAY between two men who have never had the inclination before! It does, and not all that infrequently.

As I sais also numerous times - it's easy to assume what might happen. Truth is, Chris, neither you nor I have ever been subjected to croucing down in a foxhole or a freshly dug hasty with real bullets being fired upon us by real men who are REAL pissed at us and our country. At that moment, a coward would enrage you. At that moment, a foolish person who is not well trained would enrage you. Chris, there is no time for men to boink each other in the field, ok? And when there IS time, you are either EATING or SLEEPING. These needs scream out far more loudly to be satisfied than the need for sex or intimacy.

Reality check - more closet queens have fought bravely in wars than you or I can realize. Sorry, but it's fact. If two infantry guys decide that they have the hots for each other (not likely), then that's their business. When they're geting shelled, sex is the LAST thing on a soldier's mind - unless of course he sustains a wound in the netherlands. {blush} That's where I come in. BUT AWAY from the gunfire, if at all possible {nurse}.

Chris, admit it, the truth is, you are uncomfortable with homosexuals. You don't understand them or their way of life. You do not feel at all that way yourself - you want a nice wife and kids someday. It is unsettling that people don't all fit into obvious categories, so we squeeze them into the divisions where we feel they belong. Homos are sinners - they are sick, they cannot be trusted to defend and honor their country due to a sexual preferrence. They might not be able to control themselves. Ohh it's hysteria.... {lovesick}

Ohh it's all so narrow minded and bigoted to me ....

Chris, wait till you get to college. I'm trying to get you to laugh at your own self, becasue I used to think like you do. I didn't like gays - that was aberrent behavior, in my book. I knew one gay person - and altho I called her my friend, she kinda frigthened me! That was before I actually encountered life beyond the realm of what my mom and my community wanted me to see. And then I got out and grew up. Bristled at the differences among my peers. Then got to know my peers on a one on one basis before I was aware of their gender preferences or that they had had an abortion at one time or would have one in the future. I saw them bust their butts, working just as hard as anyone else to be good at what they do. They mourned losses, had babies, lived life. Chris, you get over it when you leave your shelter, but you just won't see it till then - you aren't ready for it. But it's all out there - waiting and ready for YOU and it's heard all of your arguments and worse before.

Again, I'm not personally attacking YOU - but I think you have the potential inside you to become more open-minded than you are right now.

BTW, can you believe, after I have said all of this that I consider myself to be Republican for the most part? {glow}

All I ask is that you turn what I have said over in your mind - don't let your automatic responses answer for you - don't say what you think should be the right thing to say - just reason it out. Good luck.

mm

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by Military Mom

Chris, honey, it can STILL happen ANYWAY between two men who have never had the inclination before! It does, and not all that infrequently.


Then they're homosexuals - I said without them the potential is not there. That's a fact.

Originally posted by Military Mom

Truth is, Chris, neither you nor I have ever been subjected to croucing down in a foxhole or a freshly dug hasty with real bullets being fired upon us by real men who are REAL pissed at us and our country.


It's not JUST that - other men can be uncomfortable around them, as I doubt surprises you. And of course we need to remove all possible distractions.

Colin Powell said it best:
"Soldiers don't like to shower with soldiers, who like to shower with soliders."

Originally posted by Military Mom

Chris, admit it, the truth is, you are uncomfortable with homosexuals. You don't understand them or their way of life. You do not feel at all that way yourself - you want a nice wife and kids someday. It is unsettling that people don't all fit into obvious categories, so we squeeze them into the divisions where we feel they belong. Homos are sinners - they are sick, they cannot be trusted to defend and honor their country due to a sexual preferrence. They might not be able to control themselves. Ohh it's hysteria.... {lovesick}


Uncomfortable? It depends on what you mean. Am I as comfortable around them as I would be with a straight man? No, no I'm not. Why? Because they lead a sinful lifestyle and obviously, as a straight guy, I'm (just a little) grossed out.

I've come into contact with two men, both homosexual, and both good friends of my mother. They are both very nice, very funny, and nice to be around, at least moreso than your average person. I have nothing against them, but yes, I dislike their lifestyle and I can't even imagine living it myself.

Not everyone has to fit into categories, but from a Christian standpoint I think the sins they commit are a bit worse than your average sins...for two reasons...

a) They lie and lose their temper just like the rest of us, in addition to their homosexuality.
b) A homosexual lifestyle is constant - no one goes from straight to gay and back again day after day. This means their lifestyle is sinful non-stop.

I'm not trying to be mean - I don't disrespect gay people (well, some - the ones who make fools of themselves in disturbing parades and flaunt their sexuality around), but their lifestyle is sinful - and that's what matters.

Originally posted by Military Mom

Chris, wait till you get to college. I'm trying to get you to laugh at your own self, becasue I used to think like you do. I didn't like gays - that was aberrent behavior, in my book. I knew one gay person - and altho I called her my friend, she kinda frigthened me! That was before I actually encountered life beyond the realm of what my mom and my community wanted me to see. And then I got out and grew up. Bristled at the differences among my peers. Then got to know my peers on a one on one basis before I was aware of their gender preferences or that they had had an abortion at one time or would have one in the future.


Well, I'm not frightened of the ones I know, and I may or may not be going to college - that remains to be seen. My beliefs are just fine, thanks! Think about it: I stand by my statements concerning their sin, every straight guy is a bit grossed out by it (if only because he can't imagine being that way himself), and for better or worse, your average person is a little bit uncomfortable around them.

Originally posted by Military Mom

Chris, you get over it when you leave your shelter, but you just won't see it till then - you aren't ready for it. But it's all out there - waiting and ready for YOU and it's heard all of your arguments and worse before.


Uh, thanks Mom. :) Seems to me a lot of people hear that at some point or another...I've got learning to do, but not much on this subject just yet. Are you saying I'll meet some gay people I really like and change my opinions? Heck no - I already know two I like and I respect them, but highly disagree with their lifestyle. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Military Mom

All I ask is that you turn what I have said over in your mind - don't let your automatic responses answer for you - don't say what you think should be the right thing to say - just reason it out. Good luck.


Well, I've answered truthfully in this post. It's exactly how I feel and I wouldn't take a word of it back unless I missed something.

[TWTCommish]

And hey, let's not forget that it is obviously un-natural. I don't consider myself the weirdo for being just a little un-nerved by an un-natural act that greatly increases the spread of sexual diseases and is of a sinful nature.

As a Christian, where am I off the path? I'll be open-minded: but hearing about how homosexuals can be really nice or that I havn't learned enough about the world yet leaves me high and dry - what I really want to know is why my beliefs are out of line in your view.

[Debby]

Whoa TWT, switch to decaf!!!! LOL....( I luv ya too)

[TWTCommish]

Hey, I'm cool - just feel strongly on the subject and don't see any problems with my views. If I'm shown some and have no viable reply I will acknowledge that. Been interesting so far either way.

[Debby]

I know....I was just teasing you because you told me to switch to decaf in the gun control thread...LOL.... :)

[Military Mom]

OK, Chris. Let's agree to disagree. :) I can handle that.

I guess my issue comes in with being quite jaded with {pukeface} religion in general. Don't get me wrong, the general guidance of Chrisitanity is all well and good, but I find it sadly lacking in some areas and this is obviously one of them.

I happen to have made close friends with some homosexual people. The only negative things I have to say about them dela with individual personality traits (ie - so and so's nail polish is a little, uh, bright today...) I have one fag friend (I call him a fag, he calls himself a fag - not meant to be mean ;) ) who I wish was not as promiscuous as he has been, and that he at least would try to do it more safely... But I also have straight girlfriends who I say the same thing about.

I dunno - I think they just get a bad rap that they don't deserve. I know not all gay men are this way, but I love the ones who are flamboyant, opinionated, outspoken and love to party. They are so full of life and love. I love the frankess and toughness that many lesbians possess. I love the sense of humor, the ability to laugh at themselves, and to adopt us straight outsiders into their inner circle.

Human sexuality is still not completely understood - it is a mystery in so many ways. Homosexuality is just now beginning to be explored - the psychology of it, the why of it. I just feel like it's the easy way out to say that someone different from the norm is out of place in much of what he tries to do.

Anyway, Chris, I respect you for being so forthright and firm in your convictions. I respect your intelligence and perserverence. You and I simply think differently - the synapses in our brains are wired different {einstein}

mm

[PaulGoodman]

I have nothing against homosexual people. I have known many and most of them are great people. I don't understand how they live a sinful lifestyle? It is not like it is dirty, many gay people are just as classy and have similiar morals to straight people. Maybe it is because I live in a fairly liberal place (Seattle) or maybe because I have been exposed to homesexuals before. I personally am not in a direct social group with any, but I have made friends with some.

It is not like they are going away, people who are against them might as well learn to live with them.

[TWTCommish]

That's the thing: I'm not saying I can't "live with them", and anyone who can't has a serious problem for the most part. That's not the issue.

How is it sinful? The Bible says it is - it's quite clear cut in my opinion. This thread, I believe, is loaded with evidence from The Bible.

And ugh, for the last time: I've known gay people as well! Both very nice. I don't have anything against them, I just highly disagree with their lifestyle, seeing as how it is against God's law and spreads disease. Yes, it's their risk, but it's definitely another downside.

MM - easy way out? I really don't know. If you ask me, it's the other way around - it's easy to say you're not offended by this or that, and not tick people off. As a Christian, I stand by the Bible and its teachings, and in cases like this, that makes me rather unpopular in some places (not here, everything seems cool here)...but that's the way it goes.

Is there an easier aspect to it? In some ways, yes. I know I simply have to follow and support the Bible, and in this case, the issue is clearly cut.

[Military Mom]

Chris... I heard you several posts ago say that you knew gay people - I don't understand why you keep bringing that up.... Like I said, the main point of why we disagree on this issue is because we do not feel the same way about Christianity or the Bible.

Those are the moral codes by which you choose to live your life. While I subscribe to most of what the 10 commandments say, I do not lean upon the Bible as my foundation for moral behavior. I have strong ethics, and most of the time I know the difference between right and wrong (no one has all the answers for that all of the time ;) ) And this is one of the big reasons why my way of thinking and living clashes with the whole religion issue.

As far as 'not wanting to tick people off,' I am sure that is some people's motivation for trying to be P.C. and not say the wrong thing. I am blatantly NOT PC. If I were I'd simply agree with whoever I was with at the time on their opinions, just to keep the peace. Sometimes there is a time and a place for tat, but not here, not now.

Chris, yes, the HIV epidemic is a sad reality among the gay community. But it is also just as sad a reality for the heterosexual community. And don't forget about the lovely host of all other STDs I have seen people slink into the ER with... also spread thru heterosexual contact. Most people are grossly underinformed on the subject of HIV - to their great detriment. Please don't tell me you think that fags and IV drug users are the only ones 'spreading disease.'

mm

[jamesglewisf]

OK. I don't think there is anything worthwhile left to be said about this topic, and nobody's opinion is being changed. We're way off-topic, so I'm closing this thread.

Thank you everybody for keeping it civil.