What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

[Anat]

Hi all,

I have a question, which interests me as a Jew, seeking to learn about Christianity (and not looking for conversion :))

In the general discussion forum we had a thread about homosexuality. Among other things, Chris mentioned that this is a simple moral question for him as a Christian because the Bible says it's wrong.

To the best of my knowledge, the Torah says it's wrong. Does it say the same in the New Testament, or do the rules in the Torah also also apply to Christians? All of them? Some of them?

Just curiosity really. I wouldn't mind a debate, but as this could be a sensitive issue, it's important for me to say right now that I have total respect for your beliefs and in no way do I wish to offend anyone, even by mistake. So, please let me know if something I say on the subject is out of line.

Thanks!

Anat

[jamesglewisf]

Christians call the Torah the "Old Testament." We have 66 books to our Bible: Genesis through Malachi in the Old Testament, and Matthew through Revelation in the New Testament.

[jamesglewisf]

Some New Testament references to homosexuality are:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

Notice that homosexuality is right there beside fornication, adultery, theft, covetousness, and drunkenness. Also notice that verse 11 says that all of the above people can be saved from their sin.

[jamesglewisf]

Romans 1:21-32
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Once again, homosexuality is among a list of sins.

[jamesglewisf]

1 Timothy 1:8-10
8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
Once again, in the midst of a list of sins.

[jamesglewisf]

So, what is the church's response supposed to be to homosexuals? The same as it is to liars, perjurers, fornicators, adulterers, gossips, drunks, etc. We are all sinners, and we are all in need of forgiveness. Homosexuals are not a special class of sinners. Like the rest of us, they are supposed to give up their sin and live their lives for God.

Did you know that the guy who wrote each of the passages I quoted here was a murderer? He killed Christians before becoming one himself. But he confessed his sin to God, recognized that he could never be good enough to get into heaven, and asked Jesus to forgive his sins. If God will forgive a repentant murderer, I think he will forgive a repentant homosexual. But repenting means to change your mind about your sin, to accept what God has to say about it, and to change your actions also.

Now that I am a Christian, I still sin. So did Paul, the author of those passages. Hopefully, I sin less; and when I do sin, I am sorry and work harder to not repeat it.

[jamesglewisf]

So, can you be a homosexual and a Christian? Well, can you be a habitual liar and a Christian? Can you be an active murderer and a Christian?

The Bible is pretty simplistic. It says that you can't be a slave to sin and a slave to Christ (Romans 6). It says that a good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree bears bad fruit. You shall know them by their fruit (Matthew 7). We are supposed to bring forth fruit in keeping with our repentance (Matthew 3:8).

I John 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
So, we are all sinners and continue to sin. But if we have a lifestyle of sin, if we actively practice and promote our sin while calling ourselves Christians, we lie and do not practice the truth.

[jamesglewisf]

I John 2:3-6
3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Do you see how simple it is? If we say that we do not sin, we are liars. If we say that we are Christians and yet reject His commandments, we are liars. We will never be perfect like Christ, but we strive to be like Him.

[jamesglewisf]

I hope I didn't overwhelm you. I just hate it when Christians (not you) rant and rave about homosexuality like it is some special class of sin, and yet they pass over lying, cheating, stealing, and adultery as lesser sins. That's malarkey, and it is not what the Bible says. Jesus' death paid the penalty for any sin. God didn't look back at the cross and say, "Oops. We forgot about homosexuals. I guess they are doomed to hell." That's ridiculous. He died for homosexuals just like He died for me.

If I can get in, so can anybody else. You just have to believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for your sin and that He rose from the dead to purchase a place for you in heaven. Read more about it here (http://marriedadults.com/howtoknow.htm).

Anat, I hope all of this answers your question about homosexuality and the Bible. It's an excellent question.

[Anat]

Thanks Jim!

You sure put your heart into this and I really appreciate the effort. I also like your stand that homosexuality is no worse than any other sin, just the same. Personally I totally disagree - I don't think homosexuals are doing something wrong, even if the Bible says so.

I think that I can make my own judgement of right and wrong. I think lying, stealing and killing are morally wrong because they hurt other people. I don't think that homosexuals hurt anyone and if they choose to live as male/male or female/female couples that's fine with me. I would much rather have around me nice stable homosexual couples than some religious people that I know, who can be rude and "not nice" - but that's another argument and is not a necessarily a theological one. Again, that's not saying that what you say is wrong - that's your belief and I'm fine with it really. As long as you don't believe them to be eternally doomed or trying to harm them - that's fine.

I have another question in theology, if I may. Do Christians have to follow the laws of the Old Testament? What do you do with the explicit laws of keeping "kosher" food? As far as I know, the Bible specifically says that you must not eat pork - the pig is the one animal that is specifically mentioned in the bible as a big "no-no".

Again Jim, I really appreciate your effort, and I hope I'm not nagging. This is very interesting for me and I really do appreciate the time you take to teach!

Thanks :)!

Anat

[TWTCommish]

Homosexuality hurts God...it hurts him to see us defying him like that. We can't see God, but he's there, and he's hurt by it.

I don't know where homosexuality ranks on the list of sins...but it has to be up higher than your average sin, because being gay is an entire LIFESTYLE of sin...not just a sin here or a sin there. See what I mean?

The bottom line is that you cannot be okay with homosexuality and the Bible at the same time - the Bible is very clear on this issue. Thanks for the passages, James.

[Anat]

Chris,

Do you think there are no gay preists, rabbis, pastors etc.?
I'm pretty sure there are and I don't see God being too angry about it.
Besides Cbreeze had a great point there - if you're gay what is better to practice your sexual preference or to lie about it to others and to yourself? Both are sins aren't they?

By the way, to the best of my knowledge being a lesbian is fine with the Bible. The words in Hebrew which you translate to homosexuality are very specifically about males... :) Gay women should be fine by any standard then...

Anat

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by Anat

Do you think there are no gay preists, rabbis, pastors etc.?
I'm pretty sure there are and I don't see God being too angry about it.


He's forgiving, if that's what you mean. I don't care if a priest is gay: it's wrong, and he's putting up a bad example, to boot. Priests sin like everyone else.

Originally posted by Anat

Besides Cbreeze had a great point there - if you're gay what is better to practice your sexual preference or to lie about it to others and to yourself? Both are sins aren't they?


I didn't say to lie about it - I said they should change, or try to change. Don't know where I said they should lie about it...

Originally posted by Anat
By the way, to the best of my knowledge being a lesbian is fine with the Bible. The words in Hebrew which you translate to homosexuality are very specifically about males... :) Gay women should be fine by any standard then...


I'm fairly sure James could come up with somethng similar...besides, isn't lesbianism heavily implied to be wrong when the passage stats that homosexuality is wrong because if "goes against God's plan to have a man and a woman together"? It's just common sense.

I may be way off base, but: are you gay yourself?

[Anat]

No, not really... I'm a 28 years old woman, happily living with my absolutely wonderful boyfriend (practically husband). We're together for almost 5 years now and hoping for a baby this year. :)

Still, I don't think I would mind if one of my brothers, sister or any future children would be gay. Doesn't seem much of a problem really. I guess I'm just too liberal :) I don't believe that a person can actually change his/her sexual preference. Trying to would probably mean lying very hard to themselves, IMHO. I did some research on the subject of homosexuality in different cultures. It was part of a paper for a seminar in English Literature about E.M. Forster's book "Maurice". It's preety interesting stuff actually.

Chris, I hope you're not too upset about the things I'm saying. I really don't mean to upset anyone. I totally respect your views and feelings about this issue (and others).

I enjoy a good debate and as I said the love of my life is somewhere in the Himalayas right now, so I guess that's why I'm putting a lot of time into these debates:)

I can go on and give you nagging questions to try and deal with, but please remember that they are meant to be thought-provocative and not just provocative for the sake of provocation.

[cbreeze]

Jim,

Just wanted to say "thanks" for your time and replys to Anat.

As I have said somewhere before, I'm not a Bible school scholar, and have had very little involvement in my Church, but that is not to say that I do not believe in God.

Religion and politics are 2 highly debatable subjects, and I try to steer clear of those topics with anybody, for the simple reasons that I don't feel that I'm educated enough in them enough to discuss them. And 2, too many people are too eager to push their opinions, rather that just offer their opinions. I'm up for any discussion that is going to teach me, rather than convert me. And 3, I feel like the more I try to make my point, that I am indeed trying to convert the other party to my beliefs. (And that is never my intention, with any topic).

And that is why I am saying thanks to you. Your reply's to Anat were educational and insightful to me....without being on the pushy side.

[TWTCommish]

I'm not upset at all - you're entitled to your opinion.

I'll have to burst your bubble though: you simply cannot believe in the Bible if you truly believe what you're saying. That's a fact, and not open to interpretation. A lifestyle of homosexuality is a lifestyle of sin and is in direct contradiction with what the Bible teaches us...no way around that.

Believing the Bible and in Jesus also means that you believe that homosexuality is un-natural...

[Anat]

Chris, I'm Jewish :)

I definitely do not believe in Jesus and I don't believe in everything the bible says. I think I already said on this thread that the bible specifically prohibits eating pork (pig). No way around that either, so?

I know that many of the biblical laws were invented by people 5,000 years ago - not by God. At the time it mad sense to tell people they mustn't eat pork, because pigs are dirty animals and eating pork that is not veterinarily supervised can indeed be dangerous. I know that things today are different and I pork is safe to eat, so I eat it.

By the same token, 5000 and 2000 years ago in the land of Israel (and elsewhere) populations were relatively small and procreation was imperative, so everybody was told they must have children and they mustn't practice homosexuality. Things are different in that respect also.

I let myself be critical. I don't accept anything the bible says as it is. I belive on taking what I find to be morally right and I consider myself to be a very moral person...

Anat

[TWTCommish]

This just isn't making sense...either you believe the Bible, none of it, or parts of it. Didn't James' passages come from the Old Testament, don't they?

If it were simply a law a long time ago, that would be one thing, but this is the Bible - the word of God. I'm sure you're quite moral, but there is no in-between with God.

[Anat]

I'm pretty sure James belongs in the New Testament... I've never read it.


Chris, sorry, I really don't mean to get into a theological argument (unless you want to). It's just that I'm trying to follow your line of thought. If the bible says eating pork is not allowed (and it does in the most explicit specific way) how come religious Christians don't follow this rule?

You said:

either you believe the Bible, none of it, or parts of it.

That's pretty obvious. Do you mean that it's okay to believe just parts of the bible? Because that was my whole point about homosexuality. That believers are allowed to disagree with the bible on some points.

I treat the bible as a historical document really. It was written by people and it happens to describe the history of my people where I live. It has some part that I accept as morally just and others that I reject. As simple as that. I can bring you dozens of laws from the bible which neither you nor me would keep, if you like. 5000 years or so after someone wrote The Book I believe we should be reading this with some criticism.

Jim, I'd love to hear your input on that. Again, please tell me if you feel this is out of line. The last thing I'd want to do is hurt anyone's feelings.

Anat.

[TWTCommish]

I meant that you CAN believe those 3 things, but a Christian must believe the Bible - otherwise that person is not a Christian.

As for James, I meant James Lewis, not the Book of James. :)

Re: pork, Jesus himself ate meat at times, and my father told me something about how what He did for us on the Cross effected our allowance of meat...IE: we can eat it now.

[Anat]

Chris, as Jesus was Jewish, I'm pretty sure he avoided pork... I can't understand how his dying on the cross makes pork allowed. Maybe it makes homosexuality allowed as well?

I was always baffled by this aspect of Christianity. There are things that the bible is very specific about, like not eating pork or keeping the Shabath (it's in the Ten Commandments!). Did Jesus say very specifically that pork is allowed and that Sunday becomes the holy day, even though this contradicts the Ten Commandments?

I'm still looking for answers:)

Funny that thing with James :D

Anat

[TWTCommish]

http://www.frappydoo.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=99

That might help some.

Other than that, people were unallowed to eat animals with split-cloven feet or no cloves at all, because they're feet were dirty: it was an act of symbolism...we had not yet been redeemed from our sin, and we came from the dirty ground. When Jesus died, that was forgiven and pork was allowed to be eaten.

It was essentially Paul's mission to explain this...read his letter to the Hebrews...I think that will help.

[41mama]

Hey Anat -- As I'm sure you're probably aware, most Christian don't follow kosher dietary laws. My dh was raised Reformed Jewish and I was raised Lutheran so we've covered some of this ground many times, but he grew up eating a lot more pork (only his mother says bacon and ham aren't pork -- I mean bacon and ham from pigs -- anyway) than I ever did. And I've eaten much more pork since I got married than during my single years. Some non-Jews are feeling called to follow kosher dietary laws nowadays though, although this is complicated too because a lot of them want to follow only the laws in the Bible, not the Rabbinic traditions, e.g. don't eat milk and meat at the same meal. Anyway if you're interested and have time to read it I'm sure I could get my dh to write to you about Y'shua, the Messiah. I want to start keeping Shabbat, but keep talking about it and not doing it. I could go on and on but have I lost my audience?

[unseen1]

Hi, all

Just had to put in my two cents in here.

First let me say that I think there is nothing wrong with a person being homosexual, I have several friends that are.

Not to say anyone here feels this way but there is quite enough hate in this world without adding fuel to the fire, to each his own.

I think Anat hit on a really good point the Bible has mostly been written by man not by God. I am by no means a Bible scholar, but as far as I know the only part written by God was the ten commandments. The point is that I think Anat is on the right track, the Bible has been written and re-written by man several times over the centuries. Whether it was for practical reasons that Anat stated or for reasons not quite so wholesome. These are man's words not God's.

I personally do not believe in organized religion, this is not to say that I don't believe in God/Christ. I have seen first hand what religion gone astray can do (PPL killed or made to suffer because of what they believe in), sorry not for me. I don't need another man/woman to tell me what I should believe in.

Jason

P.S. TWTCommish, I thought that what made a person a Christian was belef in Christ??

[Anat]

Hi and welcome aboard the thread ;)

Thanks for your insights. I agree with you, oh unseen one :)

Mama41, I hink I know the views about the Y'shua, the Messiah. It's a version of Christianity, although some of them call themselves Jews. We have a group of followers here in Israel too. I pretty much accept what Unseen says, that if you believe in Christ/Jesus/Y'shua/Yeshu, you're a Christian and I'm not one.

Chris, sorry, but I find it very difficult to follow this logic of Christianity. You and the other folks here keep saying that we're all sinners and must try and keep the laws of the bible. I really can't fathom why was it that eating the pig was suddenly allowed, if everyone are still sinners by definition. Mama41's saying that some Christians are trying to eat kosher and keep Shabbath and that makes a lot more sense to me.

Again, I personally eat non kosher and don't keep Shabbath, so I'm definitely not asking anyone else to do that. I'm just trying to figure out how religious Christians come to terms with the laws of the Old Testament. Just curiosity really, nothing more.

I've never read the New Testament and I don't think that I'm going to very soon :) It's not a bestseller around these parts, I'm afraid. And I don't like reading the Bible in English too much. Too many inaccuracies in the translations... I prefer the original.

By the way, have any of you guys (and girls) ever been to Israel? I'm sure you'll find it intersting. Maybe I'll start a thread about this... I'm not sure how many visitors actually follow our little debate here... :)

Anat

[TWTCommish]

unseen: enough hate? Who mentioned hate? Christians become upset with other sinners, wish they would change, and ask them to, but they do not hate them. If they do, they're doing the wrong thing.

Anat: you can read the passages I recommended, or not...but they explain what I'm saying so that you don't have to take my word for it. Suffice to say, it justifies my claim.

James: belief in Christ is not all...you must accept the Bible as His Word, and admit that he died for our sins - the Bible says this clearly...

All these responses say the same thing "I don't think homosexuality is wrong", "it doesn't hurt anyone", "I know lots of nice homosexual people."

Saying things like that tells me that people are simply not following what I'm saying. The Bible says it is wrong: there is no doubt about that. I'm fairly sure the Old Testament says so as well...there is no debate to be made. If you think there's nothing wrong with it, then you disagree with the Bible directly. As for hurting anyone: it hurts God...no more needs to be said.

As for knowing them: so do I! Little stories about how you know this homosexual who is nicer to people than some straight person you know is simply irrelevant...they live a lifestyle of sin and should repent and change their ways to be saved...I don't know how God would deal with a homosexual who believes in him...but I really don't know if the person would be saved, since their lifestyle is in direct contradiction to God's rules.

[41mama]

I remember reading C.S. Lewis saying once that the reason he wasn't hard on homosexuals in his writings was that it was not a sin or temptation he shared so he didn't feel qualified to comment. Most homosexuals don't claim to be Christians anyway so their sexual orientation isn't really what keeps them out of heaven. As for Christians who struggle with homosexuality, I think all our little platitudes about how sinful it is probably only makes it more difficult for them. There is a small group who claim to be Christians and embrace their homosexuality, but so are those who claim to be Christians and embrace their materialism or laziness or gluttony (these issues hit closer to home for me, and I'm sure if we examine our own lives we'll find we are not without sin.) What's the point of saying over and over how bad homosexuals are? How about homosexual orientation isn't a sin -- sex outside of marriage, regardless of the sex of your partner, is the sin. Let's remove the logs from our own eyes. Christie, bursting into this controversial topic for some strange reason. Anyway I realized that people reading this post may be engaged in sex without being married, and I want to clarify that to me specific sinful behavior isn't the issue. If one isn't a Christian, this should be the starting point and our concern as Christians over non-Christians' sinful behavior seems misplaced to me.

[TWTCommish]

I don't go around yelling that I think homosexuals are sinful - but when it comes up, I say so. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

The Bible says it's wrong...part of it is sex outside of marriage, but another part is that it is stated that God's plan has men and women together...no other way.

[jamesglewisf]

Boy, I was gone for 42 hours, and look at how long this thread got.

I think I can help with several issues.

On the Bible being written by men and not God --
Christians believe that men wrote the Bible under the inspiration of God. They were not merely robots who wrote what He told them to, but He somehow inspired them to write exactly what He wanted.
2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Christians believe that both the Old and New Testaments are the word of God.
Romans 3:1-2
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
Scripture is not up for human interpretation. It has one correct interpretation: God's interpretation. Our goal is to find His interpretation, not ours.
2 Peter 1:20-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

[Military Mom]

Anat,

You raise some provocative questions in an intelligent, non-threatening way. I like that :) Sometimes asking more questions helps to get your point acorss even better as people scramble faster to justify their answers.

TWT, people feel compelled to bring up their own experiences with the gay community for several very relevant reasons. First of all, we come to know most gays as HUMANS first, not by something they do behind closed doors that we'll never see anyway. We know them as co-workers, neighbors, friends. The gay part just happens to be another detail about who they are and how they live life.

After having gotten to become acquainted with and even befriend gays it becomes obvious that their so caled 'lifestyle' is no more steepd in 'sin' than that of the heterosexual population. It is dependant upon the individual. Sure, some gays shoot up, rape, molest, lie, steal, do perverted things BUT no more than heterosexuals do! Lifestyle my foot. We ALL have a lifestyle to be 'shamed of by the well known christian standards.

I'm not sure why homosexuality is singled out as being so sinful. I think why it is taboo in the cultuer of humankind inits entireity is due to the inborn need for procreation. Obviously 2 men or 2 women can't make babies. :)

BUT - we as humans have (here comes a naughty word) EVOLVED past our instinctual drives. For example, husband and wife 'lay together' in this day and age for many more reasons than to conceive. To show and share our love for each other, to comfort, as an outlet, for relaxation, I could go on and on here.

Simply put, life isn't what it was 5000 yrs ago, as mentioned before. It isn't just about making babies and finding food to feed the babies and those who make the babies. Would *god* as most christians see him have set his beloved race of mankind up for failure by endowing us with a brain that allows us to outwit the hardships of nature so that life is no longer simply about survival but about ENJOYING life as well?

Society has evolved and changed so much that many of the ancient laws of the Bible are archaic. What does the Bible say about cars or TV or the internet? Nothing specifically - it's all open for interpretation.

Just some food for thought for you midnight snackers ;)

Mil Mom

[jamesglewisf]

About eating pork
The regulations about clean and unclean animals were abrogated by Jesus when he taught that inward purity was what mattered:
Mark 7:1-8
1 And the Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered together around Him when they had come from Jerusalem,
2 and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.
3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;
4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)
5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me.
7 'But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'
8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
Later, Jesus explained Himself to His disciples:
Mark 7:18-23
18 And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him;
19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
20 And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."BTW, the parenthetical comments are not mine; they are in the Scripture.

In his vision, Peter was taught about the essential cleanliness of all animals:
Acts 11:1-10
1 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him,
3 saying, "You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them."
4 But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying,
5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me,
6 and when I had fixed my gaze upon it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air.
7 "And I also heard a voice saying to me, 'Arise, Peter; kill and eat.'
8 "But I said, 'By no means, Lord, for nothing unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.'
9 "But a voice from heaven answered a second time, 'What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.'
10 "And this happened three times, and everything was drawn back up into the sky.
This vision also spoke to the fact that the Gospel was for Jew and Gentile alike, but it primarily dealt with the issue of clean and unclean foods.

Paul spoke about the point several times:
Romans 14:14
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
He said that these regulations were a shadow of what is to come, but the substance is Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Colossians 2:20-21
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
1 Timothy 4:1-5
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude;
5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
Titus 1:15
15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

[jamesglewisf]

One last thing on the Bible being the word of God. Since Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God, we also believe that what was written several thousand years ago is just as applicable today as it was then. An all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect God could not inspire a Bible that was not eternal. He could not inspire a revealing of Himself that becomes dated.

God was not surprised by automobiles. He just didn't write about them several thousand years before they were invented. The Bible had to be just as understandable several thousand years ago as it is today in order to be useful. Homosexuality, adultery, fornication, lying, cheating, stealing, and idolatry are all as old as sin itself; hence their inclusion in God's word.

Here is the real deal. If you are a Torah-believing Jew, then you believe that God says homosexuality is a sin. If you are a Bible-believing Christian, then you believe that God says homosexuality is a sin. If you don't believe the Torah or the Bible are God's word, then homosexuality probably isn't that big of an issue for you. But if you do believe they are God's word, you cannot honestly say that homosexuality is a bigger sin than any other lifestyle sin, whether it be habitual lying, fornication or adultery.

As a Christian or a Jew, it really doesn't matter what I think of homosexuality. All that matters is what my Creator, Sustainer, and Redeemer thinks of it. I line up with what He says. That's why if someone disagrees with me on the topic, my feelings don't get hurt. You aren't disagreeing with my opinion of homosexuality, you are disagreeing with God's word; and He can fend for Himself.

[TWTCommish]

Mil Mom/James:

Yes, homosexuality is a sin just like lying, cheating, stealing, or losing your temper. For me, the difference is that most people do not lie 24 hours a day, but gay people are gay all the time: a constant lifestyle of sin. To me, that makes it a bit worse. I could be wrong, it is simply my feelings/interpretation.

[Anat]

Thanks Jim,

That was very interesting - something I've always wondered about and you answered very elaborately.

We don't learn any of the New Testament in school - just the Old Testament. We learn almost nothing about Christianity, except for Jesus's historical life story.

As I said before, I am not looking for conversion - I take my being Jewish in a more national then religious sense anyway. But I am interested in learning about other religions, be them Christianity, Islam or any other.

I sometimes bug my future sister-in-law (about to become my brother's wife next summer). She's a religious British Christian who majored in theology. But I try to be careful so as not to make her feel under any criticism and I often skip questions that I find interseting for that reason.

Thanks again!

Anat

[Mr Willett]

My ultimate point is this: Christians obey the entirety of the Law through faith in Christ.

Once upon a time, God established a temporal promise with Israel. The gift of their promise was the Promised Land (hence the name). Yet, through Moses and the Prophets, God told his people of a promise that was coming in the future:

"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, "
declares the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:31-32).

God was prepared to establish a covenant beyond the temporal and impossible-to-meet requirements of the Law. Thus, Christ came to establish this new and perfect covenant; not to destroy the Law, but to perfect it:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17).

Christ fulfilled the sacrificial requirements and just as the High Priest interceded between God and the people, Christ was the High Priest of the New Covenant. Briding the gap between those who trust in Him, and God:

“First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4).

Hopefully this might cast some light on the Christian view of the Law. The Law shows the righteous requirements of God, but Christianity is not about consciously living one’s life according to the Law, rather Christians are abiding by the law perfectly through faith in Christ, which leads to righteousness through the empowering of the Holy Spirit of God.

I know I have packed a lot of potentially confusing stuff in here, so forgive me. But one last important point is this: Christians believe that breaking one commandment equals breaking all of them. James wrote: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10). So in the Christian view, only through faith in Christ can one hope to perfectly obey the law.

[jamesglewisf]

Right on, Mr. Willet.

I just want to add something lest somebody gets confused. Like Mr. Willet said, Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law for us. We are not saved by works or by faith plus works, but by faith alone. But we are saved for good works. In Christ we are a new creation--created for good works. It is God's will for us that we walk in good works.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So the point is that just because Jesus fulfilled the law for us, it doesn't mean we should go live like pagans. We don't have to worry about trying to fulfill the requirements of the law, but we are still supposed to be characterized by trying to live a righteous life.

God's word teaches and molds us so that we can be equipped for these good works.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Why else do we try to keep the commandments? Because it is how we show our love for Christ.

John 14:21
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him."

Of course, the ultimate good work is to believe in Jesus. It all cycles back around.

John 6:27-29
27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal."
28 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

[rs0522]

Anat -

A distinction that may be useful regarding Old Testament laws and why Christians don't follow all of them is as follows:

Old Testament Law is considered to fall under three general categories:

- Ceremonial - most of the laws of kashrut, ritual uncleanliness, not eating pork or shellfish, not wearing cloth made of two different materials, etc., fall under this heading. Much of this is based on a principle of 'purity', such as the idea of not eating rabbits because they chew the cud but do not have cloven hooves, or not eating pigs because they have cloven hooves and don't chew their cud. The idea was that it is dangerous to eat something that falls outside the rules. Some proscriptions against homosexual behavior seem to fall under this heading, although the presence of ritual male prostitution among the Near East peoples of Old Testament times probably had something to do with it as well. Similarly, the whole practice of never eating milk and meat together stems from a single passage forbidding boiling a goat in its mother's milk. This was a fertility ritual among the nature religions that the local populations of Palestine followed.


- Civic - Lots of regulations pertain to how a Jewish theocratic state ought to be run. Laws of marriage, inheritance, the year of jubilee, how to resolve disputes amongst neighbors, etc., all fall under this heading.

- Moral - Most of the Ten Commandments fit under this heading. Importantly, this is considered the only part of Old Testament law which is still binding on Christians. Thus there is nothing against eating ham or wearing cotton-polyester, but murder and theft are still wrong no matter who you are.

I hope this is somewhat useful. Christians are not being exactly inconsistent in their choice of what laws to follow and which to ignore, just basing their actions on a different understanding of which are vital and which do not apply.

Even in Jesus' time, there was a class of non-Jewish person who accepted the Lordship of Yahweh and rejected all other gods, participated in and supported their local synagogues, but did not accept circumcision nor follow the ceremonial law. This is similar to the Christian idea of following the moral part of the law, but leaving the ceremonial and civic parts to Jews.

Regards,
rs0522

[Anat]

Thanks for the explanations everyone - this has been most interesting for me.

[keithster]

I'm new here and just read this fascinating thread. Great questions and responses without hostility. Amazing.

I heard a psychologist respond to a question about homosexuality and it really got me thinking but didn't really answer my questions since one source isn't enough for something this deep.

Basically what he said is that sexuality is formed between the ages of 2 and 6. He explained that if something is dysfunctional in the family, wires get crossed (my words, not his).

It made some sense since the majority of gays friends I've had over the years have had seriously bad relationships with their fathers.

But not everyone with bad relationships with their fathers becomes gay.

So, it seems to me that it may be like alcoholism. A lot of people drink and don't have a big problem. Someone with a predisposition to alcoholism takes a drink and it's over. Similarly, someone with a predisposition toward homosexuality has a dysfunctional family and that triggers something.

I don't know, but I am asking. :)

[jamesglewisf]

The Bible teaches that we all have a predisposition toward sin, but that does not excuse us acting on it. Here are some verses about that predisposition:
Genesis 8:21
21 And the LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
Psalm 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Eccl 7:20
20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.Basically, the Bible teaches that we all sin, and we are all in need of a Savior. It doesn't matter if my predisposition is toward drunkenness, adultery, fornication, lying, or homosexuality.

[jamesglewisf]

Here is a pretty long passage that basically covers the whole issue of our predisposition toward sin and the solution that Jesus provides
Eph 2:1-10
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

[jamesglewisf]

Basically, this says that we are all children of wrath, indulging in fleshly desires. How do we become children of God instead? God in His mercy and love saves us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

This means that because of His love for us God gives us the gift of faith in Christ. Faith in Christ just means that we believe that we are sinners. We believe that you have to be without sin to get into heaven. We believe that the penalty for our sin is death, but we also believe that Jesus paid that penalty for us on the cross. It was like a substitution. Since Jesus already paid the penalty for all of our sins, to punish us again would be double jeopardy.

So, the focus should not be on which particular sin I did--homosexuality, adultery, lying, stealing, cheating, or whatever. The focus should be on the grace of God that offers me forgiveness.

[jamesglewisf]

That last verse:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.That verse talks about the fact that when we are saved we become His workmanship, and we are supposed to walk in good works, not our old fleshly lusts. In other words, because of the incredible gift we were given of forgiveness, we strive to be good to say thank you, to say that we love Him in return. We continually try to beat down those sinful desires and behave better. We won't be perfect at it, but always striving.

As Christians, we really don't continue to have an excuse for sin. We still will sin. We won't be perfect until we go to heaven, but we don't have an excuse while we are here on earth.
1 Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it.That basically means that there is no new temptation. If I am tempted by something, someone else has been tempted by it before. BUT, God always provides a way of escape so that I can do a head fake and get around the temptation. So I really don't have an excuse.

[keithster]

The frantic search for a genetic link to homosexuality (as well as so many other moral problems) sounds to me like our society is trying to find an excuse for sin. Even in some churches, the word "sin" is no longer politically correct.

[TWTCommish]

Yes, you're right. They will find no homosexual gene, because it doesn't exist. The sheer mechanics of it are obviously un-natural.

[jamesglewisf]

I think there is a homosexual gene. It is the exact same gene that makes me lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, commit adultery, be disrespectful, slander, etc.
Mark 7:21-23
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.Face it, we are all sinners. We all make the list somewhere. Our only hope is to have our sins washed clean by Christ.

[Job314]

Fascinating discussion. We have argued about this at great lengths on my web forum.

Here's the problem with the argument against homosexuality. I think it's pretty clear that homosexuality IS a genetic thing. I think it may very well be a genetic defect, but there are definite differences between a homosexual and a heterosexual. Face it, you can spot a homo without him or her telling you.

Last year I had the good fortune to be invited to a concert held by a somewhat famous gay musician, one who has been infected with HIV and signs in support of others stricken with the disease.

Now, I may not always agree with him, but I was more than happy to be his guest. The concert was a benefit for gay schoolchildren. It was the LAST place I thought I'd ever find myself. All the musicians there were gay, and some of them were just flat out flaming gay. They were messed up people. There were transsexuals, homosexuals, you name it.

And I have NO doubt in my mind that these people did not CHOOSE their lifestyle. I think there ARE some homosexuals who choose to be that way, but I don't think they are in the majority... I think they're confused people.

Now, what that means, if true, is that there are people in this world that have a natural sex drive which makes them attracted to people of the SAME sex.

In the same way that I get turned on when Christina Aguilera shows up on the screen, they might get turned on when Ricky Martin (not that he's gay or anything....) shows up.

What makes it right for me to go ahead and engage in sexual practices with Christina... or at least someone of the same gender, but doesn't make it right for my gay counterpart to engage in sexual practices with what HE is attracted to.

Asking him to act straight, to act as if he is attracted to a woman is no different than asking me to be attracted to a man.

Does God consider what this man does a sin?

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe homosexuality isn't genetic. Maybe God does consider it a sin. But we can't know for sure. And I'm willing to give these people the benefit of the doubt. As Ronald Reagan once noted, as long as these people keep it in their bedroom, it's none of our business.

I'm not going to discriminate against a homosexual because he likes to engage in... different sex acts. There are a lot of freaky sex acts that heteros engage in, and we don't discriminate against them. The only reason gays get condemned is because they act different, they walk and talk different.

It's because they ARE different. I don't think this is about homosexuality at all. I think it's about discrimination.

[TWTCommish]

Well, there's no doubt that everyone is a little "weirded-out" by absolutely anything different from themselves - everyone is guilty of that.

For me, it's a matter of logic.

If you believe in God, then you believe he does things for a reason - why would he intend for people to be born Gay, yet make the mechanics of homosexuality akward and un-natural?

I would not be at all surprised that, if taking a survey of homosexual males, for example, you'd find that many had a bad relationship with their father and/or parents.

I do not believe there is a gay gene - I believe homosexuality tends to stem from something lacking on the parent's side, or perhaps something lacking in their spiritual life.

Now, I do not believe they should be discriminated against, but we have yet to find a gay gene (and yes, a team of scientists did try...they failed), and I don't think we ever will.

I'm with Reagan - keep it to themselves. Don't put on a dog collar and make a spectacle of yourself in some vain, disgusting parade in San Francisco. Things like that are going to make it rough on all gays. I don't worry about homosexuals if they keep it in their bedrooms, but I do not believe it is genetic, natural, or anything short of a sin.

Yes, I sin as well - it is a flaw, I think, same as my tendency to get into arguments too quickly, or eat too much.

[Austruck]

I think a good rule of thumb for homosexuals (and I know a few who are also Christians) is this: Granted, sometimes you cannot help HOW you are tempted, but being tempted is not a sin all by itself. (The Bible says that Jesus was tempted but did not sin.)

The sin comes in when you act on those temptations. So, it would be wrong for someone to sleep with Christina Aguilera (since he's not married to her), and also for him to sleep with Elton John (since he's not married to him AND he's a man).

Those homosexuals I know who are saved recognize this distinction. They do not act on their temptations. And yes, they actively TRY not to be tempted by men. No, they're not trying to fool people or pretend they're attracted to women. Most of them are resigned to singlehood because they just aren't attracted to women sexually. But, they're also not engaging in homosexual behavior, and they're trying to stay clear of anything that tempts them in that area.

The argument of "Why did God make me feel this way if I can't ever act on it?" doesn't hold water, even if you could be born predisposed to homosexuality. That's like me saying, "Why did God make me love fattening foods so much if it's gluttony when I indulge in them too much?"

We are all predisposed to sin of ALL kinds, and most of us struggle with the same set of sin-temptations our whole lives, over and over again, losing at times and winning at times.

God didn't promise everyone marriage and therefore sexual release. I know heterosexual Christian singles who struggle in this area as well -- wondering why God made them sexual beings but hasn't given them mates yet.

I think all our temptations force us to lean on God and to throw ourselves at His feet daily. Homosexuality is no different. The argument of genetic predisposition doesn't even matter. If the Bible lists homosexual *behavior* as a sin, then engaging in homosexual acts is a sin.

The internal struggles are a different matter, and I share that basic struggle with any sin. That's where the empathy and help can come in. But, in the meantime, the actions have to change first.

[jamesglewisf]

This is such an old thread that I really don't want to review all four pages.

I want to remind everybody that the Bible Q&A forum is for discussing the Bible. If we want to debate homosexuality, not what the Bible says about homosexuality, then we need to start a thread in The Great Debate.

That is a fine topic, it just needs to be discussed in the proper forum.

[Job314]

Austruck

The sin comes in when you act on those temptations. So, it would be wrong for someone to sleep with Christina Aguilera (since he's not married to her), and also for him to sleep with Elton John (since he's not married to him AND he's a man).

But I have the chance (however remote) to marry Christina. A gay man has NO chance to legitimately marry Elton John.


The argument of "Why did God make me feel this way if I can't ever act on it?" doesn't hold water, even if you could be born predisposed to homosexuality. That's like me saying, "Why did God make me love fattening foods so much if it's gluttony when I indulge in them too much?"

We are all predisposed to sin of ALL kinds, and most of us struggle with the same set of sin-temptations our whole lives, over and over again, losing at times and winning at times.

God didn't promise everyone marriage and therefore sexual release. I know heterosexual Christian singles who struggle in this area as well -- wondering why God made them sexual beings but hasn't given them mates yet.


So you would simply have homosexuals be celibate. Why? If there is no institution of marriage for them, why should they respect it?

Yes, we are predisposed to sin of "ALL" kinds. (Don't shout. :P) But sex isn't a sin. It's something natural. God gave it to us.

You say there are heterosexual Christian singles who struggle... wondering why God hasn't given them mates yet. BIG difference. Homosexuals will NEVER have acceptable mates. Sometimes waiting for the right one is what God wants us to do. But he doesn't want us to never find anyone. That's not my God.

Commish


I would not be at all surprised that, if taking a survey of homosexual males, for example, you'd find that many had a bad relationship with their father and/or parents.

HA HA HA! That's a pretty good one. Oh wait, you weren't joking, were you? I have quite a few gay friends, and this doesn't fit the description of any of them.

[jamesglewisf]

This is really one of my strict rules. The Bible Q&A is for debating the Bible.

Please start another thread in The Great Debate if you want to continue this discussion.