In referance to school shooting and religion

[Mickyhoo]

OK...here goes. Without saying any major religion is right or wrong... I noticed a looooong time ago they have the same basic "stories" and figure that God showed himself to different cultures in ways that they could understand. Of course I think *my* beliefs are the right ones, but will never know for sure until the day I die.

I think the kids need to believe in MORALS at least.. if not a Religion, then right and wrong.

Yes I think God is the best thing for the kids to believe in. But I do not want to force my beliefs on anyone, as that turns them AWAY from what I want to show them. I just try to show them how I feel and act in a way that makes being a believer in God look good, instead of being a judgemental self rightous know it all. You ALL know the type.

Hope this makes sense, this late at night!!

[Zephyrus]

Yes, it should definitely be like that. Children used to be taught morals and values the hard way (I know I copped a LOT of beatings when I was a kid because of my big mouth)...These days (beginning to sound like Grandpa Simpson :)), a lot of parents aren't teaching their children proper morals (or perhaps don't have the time to), and society isn't doing a great job of it either (anyone watched Jerry Springer lately?)...So they do the best they can on their own, and these shootings are the result. Whether or not religion should be taught in schools is one thing, but someone should definitely teach the kids a thing or two about right and wrong!

By the way, where do they get the guns in the first place??

[keithster]

Guns are available on the street, just like drugs. Teens can get whatever they want. Guns aren't always obtained in the home. And it's very illegal to provide firearms to minors, so another law isn't going to help that situation.

Here's the rub. Where do you get the definition of what is right and what is wrong? Whose morality do you push?

A lot of blame lies with Dr Spock. "Don't stifle a child's creativity" was the siren call.

I heard about a conversation between two men, one who believed that children should be disciplined and taught morals, the other who believed children should find their own way. The first man talked until he was blue in the face but couldn't convince the second man of the need for moral training. The second man was solid in his belief that children were capable of finding their own way, one that was right for them individually.

Finally, he asked the second man if he'd like to see his garden. He took him outside and showed him what amounted to a patch of weeds.

"Why, your garden is nothing but weeds," he said. "Where are your flowers?"

"Ah," answered the first man, "I thought I'd let them find their own way."

The second man suddenly saw the light.

[Zephyrus]

That's a very good example keithster, I think you definitely nailed it with that one!

[keithster]

But the question remains. Whose morals do you use as the standard?

In a post-modern world, everyone has their own version of the truth and that's supposed to be okay.

[Mickyhoo]

There are some morals that are (mostly) universal. 7 of The 10 commandments are the same in every religion. Yes, some of the (to me) extremes of any Religion takes things to ridiculous lengths. The Taliban for example. No other Islamic branch thinks they are right to demolish all the statues and other historical artifacts. So no not all things are universal, and the extremes at both ends of the spectrum are not what we need to dwell on.

But from Catholism to Judaism, From Buddist to Muslim, From agnostic to athiest, all have some basic morals that stay constant.

The ones against murder, abuse, envy, greed are all the same.
The ones about helping others who cannot help themselves, honoring your parents, keeping your word, those are all the same.

Instead of worrying about the differances in our beliefs, we should work on the things that our the same to try to bring back some kind of peace.

[Zephyrus]

Yep, these should definitely be the standards by which we should all live, and teach the younger generations as well. Appart from being a message of salvation, the Bible in itself had many many good examples of morals...

[keithster]

These days, it has to come from someplace besides Christianity. That's taboo while most other religions are okay. Never mind that most of the 10 commandments or much of what you find in Proverbs makes a lot of sense.

[Mickyhoo]

That is not always true.. depends on where you are. I am a Christian, and have only once ran into a taboo against it. My neighbor on base said that he found my nativity scene in my yard to be against the sep of church and state. The base CO initially said that since housing is federal property, I had to remove it. I did, and then went to the Admiral above him and argued that MY yard is not representative of the gov't beliefs but my own..
I won.

But my point was that almost ALL belief systems have the same rules. So lets focus on those for now. As a country as a whole. Who cares WHAT name we give it for now, if our kids get to have something to belive in again. And get back a sense of right and wrong?

[keithster]

I agree with your point that all religions have some morals to teach.

The case against Christianity isn't universal, but your nativity scene wouldn't have even been an issue 30 years ago. I see these kinds of things pop up more and more frequently in news stories. The disregard of Christianity is not a foregone conclusion, but it does seem to be more of a battle everyday.

Of course, I'm probably exaggerating a bit. :)

[Spurgirl]

I know exactly what you mean...it's like with all this new wave "do it your own way and feel good no matter what" stuff coming up people think christianity is obsolete and out of date....when most of its teachings are the same things taught to them in their newfound freedom of religion.....but if I back up something (even if they do believe it to be good) with scripture...they battle it out to prove the scripture wrong....just because it was wrote down by a smart person long ago.......just because it's old and worn doesn't mean it's not valuable everyone. I also think that all religions share "respect" to certain ideals....these ideals should be embraced to make a better environment for the propogating of youth....but there will always be the "condemned and oppressed" that scream at the top of their lungs for their way to be right....and as long as there are people with a void not filled by other things...there will be a flock soon following them. My point...I believe in the Bible....but I also believe that a good person doesn't have to be a product of religion.....There are good people everywhere that are ignorant of religion or Godly existence....do I like that?...No....but I will not denounce that they are good people....but as soon as I quote the Bible I turn into an ignorant..weak minded person who needs religion as a clutch....I just don't get it?

[keithster]

I'm definitely not a religious scholar, but I would like to learn a bit more about some of the moral teachings of other religions.

Can anyone help with this?

[Zephyrus]

That depends on which religion? Just a sort of digression here, Islam means "religion of love" or something of that sorts...how is it the Jihad or holy war justified then?! I'm curious about this, you tend to see examples of it almost every day on the news...

[Mickyhoo]

Most Muslims will tell you that those who go to war over thier religion are corrupting the religion itself. Islam (from the people I met that practice it,) is a very peaceful religion.

The Taliban for example are denounced by almost every other Muslim Cleric.. including those in Iran!!

Everyone that I met that is a follower of Islam has told me that the Jihads are the extremes of thier religion. Just like the people who stand at concerts waving thier bibles and screaming that the people who listen to rock music are gonna burn are extremist Christains. (not that the screamers are as bad.. just an example)

Any one who goes to war over thier religion has corrupted thier Religion. And twisted it to suit themselves.

[Spurgirl]

Excellent observation Mickyhoo. I also believe the same way. I think (with my religion) being a warrior for Christ is just witnessing and maintaining a lifestyle that I can be proud of. I don't agree with all the crusades and battles in the past.....and people say, "Why'd God allow it then"....they seem to forget that there is good and bad on the earth...so naturally if it's bad it just came from God and was his "joke" or "misguided attempt" at something. We need to realize that everything has a good and bad, yin and yang, positive and negative....and to pin it all on religion is as far from the truth as can be....I believe human nature overrides religion when it's done for naught.