The problem(s) with women's sports...

[theyeti]

I could post this is the sports forum, but not that many people have been there lately, and it's not really about the sport itself - so *evil moderator laugh* it's going here. ;)

Today the Women's United Soccer Association folded. I would provide a link but it would simply serve to make sports fans like me ticked. Last year the Women's Professional Volleyball League (it might have been called something else) folded. That was cool while it existed 'cause one of the four teams was 15 minutes from where I lived.
The WNBA is also having problems with attendence and the main purpose of the sport: to make money. {rolleyes} Basically the problems of all these league boil down to just that, money. Money comes from 3 main sources:

1. Attendence
2. Fans buying stuff (jerseys, hats, flags, so forth)
3. TV deals (prerequisite being getting people to want to watch)

First, attendence. They need MORE of it. If you watch a WNBA game on TV, you hear one noise other than the announcers: Little girls screaming. This is annoying. Who wants to attend a game with lots of screaming little kids (besides the screaming little kids)? My theory, therefore says that by refusing to admit any patrons under 10, attendence will actually go up! Of course, this is unrealistic and biased. So, my new idea is:

[b]Put all the little girls at women's sporting events in their own fenced off section.[b] Maybe with those huge pens with rubber balls and carnival rides or something. And SOUNDPROOF walls. This way, the team still gets the money from the little kids tickets, the little kids still get to see their role models and all that other good stuff, can bond with other little kids, and regular citizens who enjoy basketball, or soccer, or whatever, can enjoy the game too! Money abounds. Times are good.

Someone tell me this makes sense? Please?... Maybe not realistic, but sensible...?

As for TV, maybe I'll get more into that later, but for now suffice it to say that watching a women's soccer game on PAX (What is PAX?) this summer, they did a ten minute segment on how one of the players picked out their wardrobe for a road trip...

[Alec]

I think the different men's sports have a hard enough time competing with each other for TV ratings. It is going to be hard for the women's sports to compete with them.

For instance, the WNBA is not even as interesting as NCAA men's basketball.

I don't really like watching men's soccer on TV, so women's soccer isn't going to get a chance with me.

I watched some women's and men's tennis the other day. It was amazing the difference between the two. The men's tennis was so much more about over-powering the other player. I'm not sure which I liked better, but I leaned toward the men's. I just couldn't believe how hard they could hit it and how much more they could just zing it by each other.

[Alec]

Another part of the problem is that the majority of sports watching on TV is probably 20-45 year-old males. That's just a guess for me. I'm also guessing that most of that group is not going to be interested in watching women's sports. The competition is just not at the same level. Most women I know in that age bracket aren't that interested in going to sporting events without their boyfriends or husbands. You see a whole lot more mixed groups or groups of men only than you see groups of women only at sporting events.

[theyeti]

I don't think the skill level is as big a problem as it is made out to be. For example, ESPN showed every game of the little league world series of baseball this year. Little kids playing baseball! Not to mention, if skill level such a factor... why do we sometimes watch college sports more than pro sports?

The answer is the rivalries, the excitement level generated by the fans who wave brooms and scream and throw marshmellows (Michigan).

The reason the WNBA isn't even as interesting as college men's basketball is that it hasn't been around enough to form rivalries and get a diehard fan base. The problem is that people say "Meh - this product isn't as interesting RIGHT NOW" - and don't even give it a chance. In order to gain that excitement, there has to be fans who are willing to be the foundation of that base.

I know this is going to be not politically correct, but how often do you think fans swear at the players during a WNBA game? Not often. They could use some stuff like that.

I will watch a 69-68 Sparks-Comets game any day over a 120-70 Lakers-Nuggets game. The only problem is that the men's game has the feel of a top-flight, 1st-division match... while the women's game needs to do a better job of getting that feel to it as well. It's the little things - promotion, the pa announcer, the concession stands, the crispness of the referees - that give something big-time feel.

[Stormwind]

I watched a "Nightline" report on this last night. It is sad really, but until they get a larger male fan base, Women's Professional Sports will continue to struggle for a toehold in the Professional Sports world. If they don't have a large enough following, then the networks and cable channels won't be interested. The bottom line is always money.

Women golfers and tennis players seem to have a large enough following with both sexes to broadcast their events. It is the other sports that have yet to attract enough of a fan base.

A tie in with the existing fan base for various male teams might work to stimulate interest, say maybe televising a women's game just before a major NBA or other event, or maybe making an all women's sports night on various sporting channels- no male games would be on and the men who as yet haven't thought women were worth watching would possibly find out differently. Changing the existing attitudes so that it would be considered ok and "macho" enough for men to want to watch a women's soccer or basketball or other sporting match- 'if the buddies think it is ok, then it must be ok'- might help. I think the number of men that do this are still in the minority. The existing male fans are going to have to speak a little louder and more often so that the rest of them can catch up and find value in watching women play.

[theyeti]

The tie in concept is good, but isn't working that great, at least in Cleveland - the Cavaliers, their NBA recently cut all ties with the WNBA team there, the Rockers.

What I also think the whole situation could use less of is, for example, the men who watch women's tennis who don't even know the basics of the sport, but rather want to see "sex with a tennis racket attached." Yeah - go look at it on the internet or something. Give those who try their hardest for the good of the sport a little respect - not just the players themselves, but the real fans who come to cheer them instead of stare at them.

[Stormwind]

The attitude change probably has to come from the guys and be reinforced by them over time- the whole peer group thing.

Frankly, I think the professional women's sports will take any kind of fan they can get and if that means that they have to put up with a few neanderthals while folks figure out that they are worth watching for the sport and team effort, then they probably won't mind too much. For professional sports, a fan is a fan is a fan.

I know some (not all) women who watch guys sports to see the hunks and could care less about the sport itself.. that comes later. I don't see men's professional sports saying they don't want those women watching or that they need an attitude change. ;)

[jamesglewisf]

Let's just not view it as a moral imperative. However you choose to look at it, it is just sports, i.e. entertainment. We are talking about a commercial enterprise. If the product has perceived value, perceived quality, and demand, it will be successful. If it doesn't, it will fail like many other commercial enterprises, especially in the entertainment industry. This is not an evil thing. It might be disappointing to the ladies involved, but that doesn't mean we should treat it like a moral imperative.

For example, for years baseball was America's sport. It is slowly being supplanted by football and basketball. This is not a problem unless your living depends upon the success of baseball. But we shouldn't equate the waning popularity of baseball with real blights upon humanity such as terrorists, famine, hurricanes, deadbeat parents, and cauliflower. That last one was a joke, sort of.

The plights of major league baseball and the WNBA are mildly disappointing, but not very important.

[theyeti]

cauliflower.Red-white-red today? Or green-yellow- blue?
[/quote]For example, for years baseball was America's sport. It is slowly being supplanted by football and basketball. This is true. 50 years ago, the biggest sports were baseball, boxing, and horse racing. The sports climate shifts dramatically in this strange country over a short period of time. Who knows what it will be like in another 10, 20 years. I say up with cricket or something... {dizzy}
This is not a problem unless your living depends upon the success of baseball.[/quote]This statement might seem not to include many people, but it does. Take my neighbor. Every Twins game, he's got the radio blaring out of his garage so virtually the whole block can hear what's going on. Whenever you go to talk to him, the first thing out of his mouth is "How 'bout them Twins?" If they stopped broadcasting those games on tv or the radio, he'd be in serious difficulty, since he doesn't have enough money to go the 60 miles up to Minneapolis more than a couple times a year.
There's all kinds of people like that for baseball, or football, or hockey... and the problems of, say the WNBA are just as troubling for those who follow it - it's just that there's less of them. I'm a soccer nut who will stay up until 1 AM to watch the MLS Game of the Week on tape delay because they won't show it live. One could argue that because I stay up until 3am, I don't get enough sleep, do poorly at my 9am class, which lowers my GPA and I don't get into the college I want! Hey, guess I just did... I'll be quiet now ;)

[jamesglewisf]

It is still just a soccer game - entertainment. You are not staying up till 1AM at the hospital with your mother who is close to death. Improving interest in sports is not even a noble cause. It is not a bad cause, just not a noble one. It's like saying that there are not enough people who like to play dominos. If we don't so something about it, the game will be lost to future generations.

We (I'm including the guy who has 24 seats to hockey games) sometimes have an inflated view of the importance of entertainment, and we need to step back and look at it realistically.

[theyeti]

Yeah, I'll admit it isn't a "noble" cause... but remember, a lot of people do treat sports as life or death. Sports weaves together what reality is with something we have control over. When life stinks, we turn to sports, and get some passion for life again.
Take the Columbian soccer player who got shot when he scored an own goal. Or the Giants (or Dodgers... I can't remember which) fan who got shot over an argument about baseball in the parking lot last week. Or the conclusion of the 1980 Miracle On Ice game, when the USSR players were slumped over their sticks with a look on their faces that said "I don't wanna go to Afghanistan!"
It is entertainment, but it's also more than that. How often do see the same passion at the movie theatre as you do at a football game?

[Stormwind]

Originally posted by jamesglewisf
Let's just not view it as a moral imperative. However you choose to look at it, it is just sports, i.e. entertainment. We are talking about a commercial enterprise. ...It might be disappointing to the ladies involved, but that doesn't mean we should treat it like a moral imperative.
...
The plights of major league baseball and the WNBA are mildly disappointing, but not very important.

I must have missed anyone treating it like a "moral imperative" or more important than the real world of wars, economics, daily life and family. BUT we do need entertainment in a world that is seen increasingly as in chaos. All serious, all the time, is not good for Jack or Jill. Seeing women in professional sports is nice. Seeing women as the major players (actors, directors, musicians, artists, authors and sports figures, etc.) in any field of entertainment as opposed to men is nice. We are 51% of the population.

But entertainment needs an audience to succeed. And usually it needs a mixed gender audience, because some of each gender will never be entertained by the particular medium.

[jamesglewisf]

I'm not saying anyone is treating it as a moral imperative. I just don't want us to.

[theyeti]

Not to be sexist here, but watching the World Cup I've seen that they've decided to go with all female referees too... and the refereeing has been absolutely awful. That might just be because the organizers didn't do a very good job of selecting the officials. Either way, I don't think they should've ONLY selected female referees... they should select the best officials for the level of play, regardless of other factors. It brings about an aura of unprofessionalism. Even though I don't think anyone can say "the referee cost them the game," there have been numerous times when the referee has made rulings that just plain aren't correct and are clearly spelled out in the laws. Not judgement calls, but simple mental mistakes.

[Stormwind]

in theyeti's sig line: "*** I have a blog-thing! The masses jump in jubilation. --> xanga.com/theyeti"

It won't let me sign the guestbook without joining??!! I also can't find an RSS feed, so I am going to try to create one at blogstreet so I can add it to bloglines- but I checked you out- the site looks great!

Blogstreet RSS feed for your blog (http://feeds.blogstreet.com/25057.rss) -- it isn't perfect but it works!

[theyeti]

Hmm.... ???? I'm a newby at this... mostly it's just a place to put down all the stuff I put on little scraps of paper I find in my pocket then usually forget about! I just read an article about RSS feeds because I wasn't exactly sure how it works, and I don't think I am yet... I can't get the link to work either. Uffda! ;) I've also noticed that xanga is really annoying and I don't particularly like it... one of my friends was using it but it turns out she actually had premium, and I am a cheap skate who doesn't want to pay anything ;){evil}

Anywhoo, watching the US game a few minutes ago the referee was excellent. She did screw up on a penalty that looked to be a foul at full speed but then was clearly not on the replay (we missed the kick so it didn't end up having an effect on the game, though). But Nicole Petignat in, in my opinion, the best female referee in the world. Kind of negates my previous comment I guess...

more proof of my internet incompetence - i had to edit this post 4 times to get the one dumb set of tags right! arrrrghh!

[Stormwind]

I just sent you an email about why you can't read from the link I put in the other post... And then I read your post again. If you aren't sure about xanga, check out www.blogger.com . They have made it all free, will host it at blogspot, and it is now all owned by google. You can put a blogger button in your toolbar, to post a link and comments directly from your web browser and other easy stuff. The layout at xanga looks nice though and you would have to work harder to get all the same features and look in blogger.
Sorry to have taken this way off topic.

I would think that female refs have about the same competence overall as male ones.. some are and some aren't..

[Alec]

I doubt it matters. It doesn't matter what the sport is, it seems like there are complaints about the officials. Maybe it is just a TV, instant replay thing where we didn't have as much years ago. I don't know.

[theyeti]

Normally I'd agree, and on average I bet that's true. What I was talking about in this case was mistakes where the rules were actually applied incorrectly. For instance, in one case the USA made a penalty kick, then had to retake it because the goalkeeper illegally moved off the goal line. I hope it was just a brain fart on the referee's part, because anyone who's played soccer knows that if the kick goes in, it's good! You don't have to retake it because the other team committed a foul!
2nd instance would be (this will be hard to explain to those who don't know soccer) when a referee added 9 minutes of stoppage time to the end of the game. That's an absurd amount, I've never seen it before at any level above the recreational league I play in. Stoppage time is the time the referee decides to add on to the end of the game, because the clock never stops and this makes up for injuries, time-wasting, things like that. Typically it's never over 4/5 minutes max. And there weren't even any major delays in this game.

[theyeti]

This is good:

My good ol' University of Minnesota Gophers have sold out everything except the suites for their women's basketball game against Iowa today. That's 13,700 seats. Wow. I can remember just a couple years ago when they played in an old filthy arena and they'd be lucky if they had 1,000 fans show up.