Concealed Weapons

[toasty]

We here in Missouri have recently had our state's legislature override our Governor's veto of a bill that allows people to carry concealed weapons on them as they walk around in day to day life. Indeed, Anheuser-Busch has discontinued its financial support for Gov. Holden based upon his veto (A-B is the largest single political contributor in MO, although it normally gives roughly equal amounts to both sides). My question to you all is whether or not you would support a bill to allow people to carry concealed weapons.

I haven't spoken to a single person in Missouri that thinks this is a good idea. For those of you that support the right to carry, please explain why, b/c I'm personally at a loss.

My thought is this -- I have no problem with the 2nd Amendment in general, and I support the right of people to have guns for sport, personal protection of the home, etc. The 2nd Amendment, however, allows us to bear arms due to the need for "a well regulated militia" (a somewhat antiquated notion, in light of the might of our organized military and the extremely unlikely event that another country would attack us on our own soil). I guess I think that not having people walking the streets with guns falls into the "well regulated" category.

Proponents of the law suggest that this will make Missouri a safer place to be. To the contrary, I would imagine that the likely impact of having more guns out in the relative open will result in more accidents and relatively minor confrontations that escalate b/c the participants are emboldened by the fact that they're packing. Moreover, I don't really see the folks that pose a real threat, i.e. criminals, changing their behavior.

My $.02

Thoughts?

[theyeti]

This is an interesting topic, toasty, considering that we just had a concealed weapons bill passed here in Minnesota as well! The only change I have noticed since the bill went into effect, however, is the multitude of signs popping up on businesses that say "NO WEAPONS OF ANY SORT ARE ALLOWED ON THESE PREMISES!" which fortunately, the legislature has allowed businesses to do (as long as they make a sign at least so many inches square, in 48-point arial font, etc.).

I would have to say that my opinion on this subject is just about identical to yours. I would also think that having more guns out on the streets would increase the number and severity of accident and minor confrontations, but that hasn't seemed to be the case so far. It will be interesting in a year or so to see the statistics on that.
Personally, unless you are in a really high-risk neighborhood (which there aren't exactly many of in Minnesota) and are at high risk yourself, I see no need for the average citizen to carry a weapon period.

[jamesglewisf]

We have concealed weapons laws in Texas. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference. If someone wants to carry one and follows the rules, I say more power to them.

I don't have any guns because of my young child, but I had some when I was a kid. Even if I had a handgun, I wouldn't want to carry it on me.

[theyeti]

The way I see it, is if it doesn't make much of a difference, why carry something around, something potentially deadly (if only by accident), that has a connotation of violence? That's basically why I don't support the law.

[Grimey]

This one seems pretty evenly split.

We need some more votes. What is it gonna take for me to get some of you low down, dirty rotten, no good, lazy bums to vote?

Gimme my gun. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

[Alec]

I don't think there should be any laws regulating the use of guns for adults.

[theyeti]

Problem with that is, adults don't always act like adults, right? If everyone acted the way they're "supposed to" there would be no need for laws of any sort! Laws should be, in essence, to protect us from the people who don't know how to behave.

[mec]

The CCW laws do reduce the number of violent crimes against persons and those likely to commit them to refine their victim selection process. In several areas it has been noted that non contact crimes such as burglary increase and the crime rate rises in neighboring areas which do not have the concealed handgun licenses.

So, it does make a difference. The number of shootings - accidental or otherwise either stay the same or decline- so negatives of the laws are difficult to demonstrate.

In Texas, a number of business immediately posted the " No Guns" signs but the signs are rare now. They lost customers who felt that advertising that there are no legal guns present targeted the area for criminals or were generally insulted that the businesses would wish to regulate their apparrel.

Since the guns are concealed, after the initial publicity, nobody really gives them much though. My own gun was quite a deciding factor when I came home to a house full of burglars. They ran off when confronted with the weapon. Same thing when a gang of street boys decided they wanted my bicycle. We went our separate ways- it was a win-win situation.

The collective interpretation of the Second Amendment is a fairly modern phenomena. Most interpretations of the Bill of Rights hold the individual citizen as the common denominator and the enumerated rights as a limitation on government. The Founders saw these rights as existing prior to ratification and deemed a generally armed citizenry to be a hedge against politically powerful standing armys . Most of the State constitutions are worded a bit differently eg: " The people have the right to keep an bear arms for protection of themselves and the State..."

[CuriousG]

I have a concealed carry license. Being in a family of law enforcement, we have received threats, etc. and it is a means of protection. The key to gun laws is further research and development for safety measures. Trigger locks when storing, and things like transmitter rings which only allow the gun to be fired by the owner. The problem is that the criminals have guns, will always have guns and if the gun's use is for criminal its not going to be a registered firearm by a responsible citizen for the most part. I believe that when talking about violent crimes and about the people with the capacity to kill others, it really doesn't matter whether or not they have a gun. If they are that self-deluded so as to resort to murder, they're going to use whatever they have to. I believe that regardless if you have a concealed permit or not, there are certain places where having the weapon is not necessary and should be deemed off limits. For example, schools, government buildings, public forums, etc. I do, however believe that people have the right to protect themselves. A person who knows how to use deadly forms of martial arts does not have to have a permit for their skills. They could be considered a concealed weapon since you couldn't tell they were able to do this just by looking at them. The problem with guns is responsible citizenship, but who do you punish, the majority who are responsible gun owners, or the few who are going to be irresponsible in their actions regardless if the have a gun or not and whether they have the gun legally or not. Outlawing the carrying of guns will never help the situation. At least with gun laws you have some semblance of a system to track most gun purchases, etc. I understand both sides of the issues though.

[squidge]

hi guys i am new, and i come from the land down under. We had a man in Tasmania walk down a busy street quiet a few years ago now and kill 35 people and injuring many with a gun. Ever since then we have had laws to prevent people from owning guns, you can get a license for a gun but you need to explian why and if it is not a farming or sport related excuse then, no gun. Also those who do have a license are checked all the time as to where they keep the gun, where they keep the ammo and in what state it is all kept in, there are even laws on this. I really cannot think of too many reports of guns being used as a force of violence since.
Now i do not know too much about your laws, but i think that your countries view is that everyone has the right to bear arms? i have also seen Michael Moores Bowling for Colonbine (sorry my spelling is horrible). I don't know why but you feel like you have to protect yourself from other people. In australia not everyone are mates, but we do not always feel like we have to take a second look at people to make sure they are going to leave us alone.
I am really sad to hear that it is this way in America. I do not understand why anyone would want to pass a bill to allow people to carry concealed weapons. There must be a lot of fear for poeple to feel that this is a need.

i agree that if someone does want to kill they will do with whatever means, people can kill with just there hands alone, should these be regarded as cocealed weapons as well?

Why doesn't the nation enforce boundaries for people? Giving people the right to bear arms is a boundary to say that weapons are okay and do what you like cause your allowed to have them, and then somone uses their weapon and injures and kills someone, and then it is like "i cannot believe this is happening". Why can't the nation say NO we will not tolerate concealed weponds, NO you are not allowed to have a gun in your home, you need a licence. Take away the weapons, destroy them. Do not give people a choice to be able to have a gun just cause they want one.
I mean this could be your wife, husband, children, friend, family, someone could be taken from you because the government were not gutsy enough to say NO.

[Dude111]

Welcome to Frappydoo :)

[mec]

If you truely want to understand the complexities of the American gun situation, you might want to look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

If you merely want validation of your conception of the topic this might do:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/

[jamesglewisf]

Samson killed all those Philistines with the jawbone of a donkey. They didn't outlaw donkeys.

The terrorists killed a bunch of people with a box opener and a plane.

[Justawoman]

Any responsible gun owner knows all the ends and outs of their weapon. Plus James is right... anything can be a weapon.

[FoC]

I voted yes.
I am a gun rights proponent and have been most of my life.
However, Im not an idiot, either. I know that many gun rights nuts like myself go way over the line and want a 'right' to use a minivulcan to hunt deer with and personally I think that any argument that makes hunters/gun owners seem like kill happy weirdos isnt doing our cause much good at all.

Im a member of a couple gun rights forums and have literally been attacked because I said I dont believe that we should be permitted to hunt with assault weapons.
Gun rights advocates forget that these laws are passed by folks who are voted into office and if we keep sounding like we're crazy the voting public may end up not going in other directions and cause us to lose many of the rights we have.

I do believe in CCW and my main reason for that is the little 100 pound woman who really has no way of stopping a 230 pound brute.
I dont know if any of you saw it, Ive got a link here somewhere, but there was a news story (not hearsay, but actually covered by a new broadcast) of a 80 year old woman who was broken in on and actually fended off her attacker with a 38 revolver that her son had bought her 30 years before for 'protection'....

Ive kept up on the FBI stats for quite some time and its fairly common when a state starts allowing concealed carry for personal assaults to drop.
Of course, the bad guys turn to breaking into businesses late at night instead, but honestly, Id rather have my business broke into than have a young woman attacked.

I do support the training of anyone who wants to carry concealed. Altho if memory serves Vermont doesnt have a mandatory training requirement and I dont think they have a large amount of accidental shootings by those carrying concealed.

Anyway, for me its just a way to hopefully keep the bad guys at bay because they just dont know who is carrying and who isnt...

[FoC]

This is an interesting topic, toasty, considering that we just had a concealed weapons bill passed here in Minnesota as well! The only change I have noticed since the bill went into effect, however, is the multitude of signs popping up on businesses that say "NO WEAPONS OF ANY SORT ARE ALLOWED ON THESE PREMISES!" which fortunately, the legislature has allowed businesses to do (as long as they make a sign at least so many inches square, in 48-point arial font, etc.).

I would have to say that my opinion on this subject is just about identical to yours. I would also think that having more guns out on the streets would increase the number and severity of accident and minor confrontations, but that hasn't seemed to be the case so far. It will be interesting in a year or so to see the statistics on that.
Personally, unless you are in a really high-risk neighborhood (which there aren't exactly many of in Minnesota) and are at high risk yourself, I see no need for the average citizen to carry a weapon period.
Yeah.
Ohio went CCW a couple years back and some banks that put up those 'no guns' signs were the first ones robbed, sadly enough. Many businesses started taking the signs down because its pretty much telling the bad guys 'come on in, we're defenseless in here'' :(

[FoC]

The way I see it, is if it doesn't make much of a difference, why carry something around, something potentially deadly (if only by accident), that has a connotation of violence? That's basically why I don't support the law.

While I can understand the fear of folks who are against ccw, remember that the bad guys dont obey the laws and even if we forbid them to carry they will anyway.
The only realistic way to stop these nuts like the VA shooter are to hopefully have someone who can put a stop to the rampage Asap.

I was reading that the Columbine shooters, from an FBI report, had around 100 improvised explosive devices.
These guys were going to kill regardless of having guns or not.

What scares me honestly is what these guys will do if they cant get a gun.
I mean, look at Oklahoma City not so many years ago. And then 911 too. No guns at all and lots and lots of dead.

Obviously no armed person could have stopped the Oklahoma thing, but possibly at Columbine or VA Tech a single trained person with a concealed weapon might have stopped the killing before it went as far as it did.

Its a sick, sick world we live in.
Precisely why I do have guns in my home.
Coming from a big city and being robbed twice, I have a good respect for the possibilities.
I live in a smaller city now, but we had some muggings just down the street over this past fall in the parking lot of a grocery store.

Actually my mom and daughter were both robbed right in front of a Krogers store in Columbus ohio a few years back.

I would feel so much better if every woman out there would start carrying.