Sin Eaters

[CuriousG]

Ok, I just watched "The Order." Has anyone seen this? It's the one with Heath Ledger as a Catholic Priest. To make a long story short, it deals with "sin eaters" who take the burden of one's sins from them before they die, so that they are forgiven. I was trying to find something about this on the internet because I think I've heard of it before, but I got a bunch of different views and ideas on it. Has anyone heard of this and know if it was something that was practiced in the past or maybe even today? I was just curious if anyone had a good link. It just seemed like something interesting, I was flipping through a bible trying to find a reference, but I don't think I'll find anything, I have a "New International Version."

[Grimey]

It's just something that is made up. It has nothing to do with the Bible.

The only way you can have your sins forgiven by God is through accepting the fact that Jesus has already taken care of this by dying on the cross to pay the penalty for your sins and rising from the dead to purchase a place for you in heaven.

[CuriousG]

Yeah, I know all of that, I'm not saying that these individuals actually were an instrument of religion persay. I'm referring to people actually practicing this idealogy, not that it worked or was common. I have definately heard of sin eaters a few times, usually contained in the history of the Catholic church. I'm not
saying catholics believe in them, condoned them, or are even aware of them. Just that some people may have practiced "sin eating" in the ceremonial sense. I don't believe that it worked, etc. I'm just curious as to this mystery. I couldn't find anything in the bible about it, I don't think there is anything in there regarding these people. It may be referenced in other historic documents though.

[jamesglewisf]

I grew up Catholic, but I've never heard of them.

[heavyburden]

i to have heard this before i seen that movie,i did some checking on the net and found this http://www.bartleby.com/81/15399.html

and also found this site which is very interesting

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/page.cfm?objectid=12807736&method=full&siteid=50082

anyone with more sites to add to wut i already mention above please feel free to list more on this topic

[jamesglewisf]

I don't mean to be persnickity, but this is the Bible Q&A forum. "Sin eaters" have absolutely nothing to do with the Bible. This is an interesting topic, but it is about fables and mythology, so I'm going to move it to the Great Debate forum per the guidelines for this forum: This is the place to ask any question you have about the Bible. What does it say about divorce, dinosaurs, pre-marital sex, or dancing? What about children born blind or wars or natural disasters? What do predestination and limited atonement mean?

Any question you have about the Bible is probably not new. If I haven't asked it before myself, I am sure someone else has. So don't be afraid to ask anything.

Some threads might get moved to The Great Debate forum if they aren't really about the Bible or Christianity. Bible Q&A is not the correct forum for debates about religion.This topic started with a question about sin eaters and the Bible, but now it is progressing to new territory. Again, there's nothing wrong with the topic or anyone's posts. It just doesn't belong in the Bible Q&A anymore.

[dogos42]

SIN-EATER, a man who for trifling payment was believed to take upon himself, by means of food and drink, the sins of a deceased person. The custom was once common in many parts of England and in the highlands of Scotland, and survived until recent years in Wales and the counties of Shropshire and Herefordshire. Usually each village had its official sin-eater to whom notice was given as soon as a death occurred. Heat once went to the house, and there, a stool being brought, he sat down in front of the door. A groat, a crust of bread and a bowl of ale were handed him, and after he had eaten and drunk he rose and pronounced the ease and rest of the dead person, for whom he thus pawned his own soul. The earlier form seems to have been more realistic, the sin-eater being taken into the death-chamber, and, a piece of bread and possibly cheese having been placed on the breast of the corpse by a relative, handed to the sin-eater, who ate it in Plural, the presence of the dead. He was ida. Sindhi. Lahnda. then handed his fee, and at once _-- hustled and thrust out of the house Is huOsi hase amid execrations, and a shower of ,~ua have sticks, cinders or whatever other a hate msiipR we-re h~ndv, Th~ rnstnm of sin-eating is generally supposed to be derived from the scapegoat (q.v.) in Leviticus xvi. 21, 22. A symbolic survival of it was witnessed as recently as 1893 at Market Drayton, Shropshire. After a preliminary service had been held over the coffin in the house, a woman poured out a glass of wine for each bearer and handed it to him across the coffin with a funeral biscuit. In Upper Bavaria sin-eating still survives: a corpse cake is placed on the breast of the dead and then eaten by the nearest relative, while in the Balkan peninsula a small bread image of the deceased is made and eaten by the survivors of the family. The Dutch doed-koecks or dead-cakes, marked with the initials of the deceased, introduced into America in the 17th century, were long given to the attendants at funerals in old New York. The burial-cakes which are still made in parts of rural England, for example Lincolnshire and Cumberland, are almost certainly a relic of sin-eating.

[jamesglewisf]

This thread sure is getting a lot of views. We must show up in some search engine somewhere.

[theyeti]

wow, 'tis #4 on google.

[spirit renewed]

If you like to read, Francine Rivers wrote a book called The Sin Eater. It is a fictional account of a village where this took place, and what happened when the Gospel of Jesus Christ came to the village.

It's not my favorite among her books, but she is an excellent writer, and tackles tough subjects that many Christian writers have skirted around.

[CuriousG]

I'll have to take a look at that.

[SeanB]

Ok, I just watched "The Order." Has anyone seen this? It's the one with Heath Ledger as a Catholic Priest. To make a long story short, it deals with "sin eaters" who take the burden of one's sins from them before they die, so that they are forgiven. I was trying to find something about this on the internet because I think I've heard of it before, but I got a bunch of different views and ideas on it. Has anyone heard of this and know if it was something that was practiced in the past or maybe even today? I was just curious if anyone had a good link. It just seemed like something interesting, I was flipping through a bible trying to find a reference, but I don't think I'll find anything, I have a "New International Version."
Leviticus XVI 21-22 the scapegoat, is the passage where sin eaters derive justification... unfortunately this practice died about 30 years ago in Wales, it was only big in England and Scotland in recent past it has been outlawed by the church since the third century. The movie you referred to does offer a fairly accurate picture of what the ritual may have looked like.... Just thought I would let you know where your passage was. Sorry to go in-dept but I study Religious Mythology.

we got rid of the double post... no problemo - yeti

[jamesglewisf]

I bet the reason they outlawed it in the church in the third century is that there is no biblical basis for it. Claiming Leviticus 16:21-22 as justification is pretty hilarious. I know you're just telling their justification and not trying to justify it yourself.


Leviticus 16:20-22
20 "When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21 "Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. 22 "The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

[CuriousG]

I kind of feel the same way about Purgatory. I think the so-called biblical references to Purgatory are a stretch to what the Catholic church claims it to be.

[rachbri]

I bet the reason they outlawed it in the church in the third century is that there is no biblical basis for it. Claiming Leviticus 16:21-22 as justification is pretty hilarious. I know you're just telling their justification and not trying to justify it yourself.


no the reason they outlawed it was because the catholic church doesn't believe that a man outside of the catholic church can take away anothers sins. the church only believes your sins will be taken away by god. the sin eaters are basicaly taking the sins of the dead or soon to be dead so the dying one can get a free trip to heaven with out having to ask god for forgiveness. in doing so the sin eater will get immortality and live forever or untill he passes the skill of sin eating down to another man.

[Justawoman]

no the reason they outlawed it was because the catholic church doesn't believe that a man outside of the catholic church can take away anothers sins. the church only believes your sins will be taken away by god. the sin eaters are basicaly taking the sins of the dead or soon to be dead so the dying one can get a free trip to heaven with out having to ask god for forgiveness. in doing so the sin eater will get immortality and live forever or untill he passes the skill of sin eating down to another man.

The catholic church is not the only church with the view that only God can forgive sins. One reason why James keeps saying there is no Bibilical basis for this so-called sin eater. Jesus became our last scapegoat too and sacrifice.

[jamesglewisf]

What she said.

[Nyoka]

Yeah, I know all of that, I'm not saying that these individuals actually were an instrument of religion persay. I'm referring to people actually practicing this idealogy, not that it worked or was common. I have definately heard of sin eaters a few times, usually contained in the history of the Catholic church. I'm not
saying catholics believe in them, condoned them, or are even aware of them. Just that some people may have practiced "sin eating" in the ceremonial sense. I don't believe that it worked, etc. I'm just curious as to this mystery. I couldn't find anything in the bible about it, I don't think there is anything in there regarding these people. It may be referenced in other historic documents though.

[Nyoka]

My father is a Methodist minister and i asked him about sin eaters, he said he had never heard of them. I saw The Order a good year ago, i think, and i only remembered the sin eaters becasue it was mentioned again in the movie Final Cut with Robin Williams. Has anyone been able to fimd anything new about this tintilating subject?

[DataJack]

Jesus became our last scapegoat too and sacrifice.

DITTO!

[pack momma]

Dogos42, thanks for the research, I found it very interesting. It's important to remember also that people in that region and timeperiod were very supersticious and illiterate. The "church" looked the other way or even embraced many of the customs of the areas in order to gain converts, by attaching "christian" significance to many things. Some of this stuff has carried down to our time. (not the sin eating, other things)

I'm you the rest of you on the religious aspect. The only sin-eating I ever knew about was on science fiction.

[the other]

wow, this page has more info on sin eaters than any other page i've found on the net! im quite curious about these chaps myself. just for a note, you're not going to find sin eaters in the bible because the church is embarrassed by these people. as one of you have already said, sin eaters offer free rides to heaven- the church is not going to advertise the fact that the sin eater exists- that would not be good for them, people would question why they should believe in god if they can simply pay for their sins to be taken away from them when they die! anyway, the last recorded sin eater i found was in wales around 1855, i know that the tradition came from england. but im curious as to know wether they exist today? do people belive in these types of ceremonies today? i would like to know! please post with any more info?
the other.

[Noseypoo]

This got me interested now, so I went on a Google-spree. Here's what I found:

Funeral Customs: Wakes, Mutes, Wailers, SIN-EATING, Totemism, Death-Taxes (http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/fcod/fcod07.htm)

A less known but even more remarkable functionary, whose professional services were once considered necessary to the dead, is the sin-eater. Savage tribes have been known to slaughter an animal on the grave, in the belief that it would take upon itself the sins of the dead. In the same manner, it was the province of the human scapegoat to take upon himself the moral trespasses of his client--and whatever the consequences might be in the after life--in return for a miserable fee and a scanty meal. That such a creature should be unearthed from a remote period of pagan history would be surprising enough, but to find reliable evidence of his existence in the British Isles a hundred years ago is surely very much more remarkable.

Professor Evans of the Presbyterian College, Carmarthen, actually saw a sin-eater about the year 1825, who was then living near Llanwenog, Cardiganshire. Abhorred by the superstitious villagers as a thing unclean, the sin-eater cut himself off from all social intercourse with his fellow creatures by reason of the life he had chosen; he lived as a rule in a remote place by himself, and those who chanced to meet him avoided him as they would a leper. This unfortunate was held to be the associate of evil spirits, and given to witchcraft, incantations and unholy practices; only when a death took place did they seek him out, and when his purpose was accomplished they burned the wooden bowl and platter from which he had eaten the food handed across, or placed on the corpse for his consumption.

Howlett mentions sin-eating as an old custom in Hereford, and thus describes the practice: "The corpse being taken out of the house, and laid on a bier, a loaf of bread was given to the sin-eater over the corpse, also a maga-bowl of maple, full of beer. These consumed, a fee of sixpence was given him for the consideration of his taking upon himself the sins of the deceased, who, thus freed, would not walk after death." He suggests the connection between the sin-eater and the Jewish scapegoat of the old Testament.

You might want to consider reading the whole thing about Funeral Customs, very interesting! Sure thought me a thing or two. {toothy}

[Grimey]

wow, this page has more info on sin eaters than any other page i've found on the net! im quite curious about these chaps myself. just for a note, you're not going to find sin eaters in the bible because the church is embarrassed by these people. as one of you have already said, sin eaters offer free rides to heaven- the church is not going to advertise the fact that the sin eater exists- that would not be good for them, people would question why they should believe in god if they can simply pay for their sins to be taken away from them when they die! anyway, the last recorded sin eater i found was in wales around 1855, i know that the tradition came from england. but im curious as to know wether they exist today? do people belive in these types of ceremonies today? i would like to know! please post with any more info?
the other.
You don't understand Christianity. Heaven already is a free gift. All you have to do is accept Jesus as your savior. There's nothing else you have to do. It already is a free ride.

There is no concept of heaven without God. There is no concept of sin without God. Therefore, to say that the reason people like sin eaters is so that they can get into heaven without believing in God is not rational. If you believe in heaven, you automatically believe in God. If you believe that you can be kept out of heaven, then you automatically believe that God is keeping you out. If you believe in sin, then you automatically believe in God because God is the one who told us what is a sin and what isn't.

The reason Christianity rejects sin eaters is because there is no biblical basis for it. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father (God in Heaven) except through me." That's why we reject it. It's not a conspiracy.

[Justawoman]

These consumed, a fee of sixpence was given him for the consideration of his taking upon himself the sins of the deceased, who, thus freed, would not walk after death."

Now we know why they existed Nosey. Thanks for the information. Sixpence back then might have been considered a fortune today. To quote a Disney movie, " Those poor unfortunate souls."
I am sure the sin-eater made a comfortable living off of the fears of those who desperately wanted their deceased loved ones to have a happy spiritual journey. I know, sounds cynical but hey the sin-eater sure wasn't going to do that for nothing. If he truly believed in the here-after the sin-eater should have accepted no payments there by ensuring his own crown awaiting him in heaven. I don't understand the need of those to make a living (quite a substantial one at that) off religion. It kinda gets me going, did you notice? We had a preacher once that worked in the community plus preached. That always impressed on me the idea that Jesus instructed the apostles to work and to not be a burden to others. They were given a gift and should share freely, such should anyone enlightened by the truth. Okay gettin off my soapbox now.

[pack momma]

You don't understand Christianity. Heaven already is a free gift. All you have to do is accept Jesus as your savior. There's nothing else you have to do. It already is a free ride.
.


Almost, but not quite. Yes it is a gift given freely, something we can never earn or be worthy of, but it is not a free ride. Responsibility goes along with this gift or it can be taken away.
compare 1 Peter 5:4 with Rev 3:11 and Hebrew 10:26

[Grimey]

YIKES! You can't lose something you didn't earn. You can't lose something that is the complete work of God. God gives us the faith. God preserves us in faith. No one can snatch us out of His hand and He will never cast us out.
John 10:27-30
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

John 6:36-40
37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. It is the gift of God.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

God reveals truth to us.
Matthew 16:17
17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

We are not born of the will of man, but the will of God.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God gives us to Christ. He will never cast us out.
John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

The only way we can come to faith is if God draws us to himself. We don't even get credit for coming to faith in him.
John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

We can't come to faith unless it is granted to us by God.
John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

God opens the door of faith.
Acts 14:27
27 And when they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

The Lord opens your heart.
Acts 16:14-15
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Our belief in Him is granted to us.
Philippians 1:28-30
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Every good thing, including our faith, comes from above. He brings us forth by the word of truth that we might be the first fruits (saved).
James 1:16-18
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures.

If God does all the work of our salvation, there is nothing we can do to lose it.

[Grimey]

Also, he gives us eternal life. You can't lose something that is eternal. It wouldn't be eternal if you could.

John 3:15
15 that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 4:13-14
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life. "

John 10:27-30
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24-25
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

John 6:27
27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal."

John 6:36-40
37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:46-47
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 6:68
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? "

John 14:19
19 "After a little while the world will behold Me no more; but you will behold Me; because I live, you shall live also.

John 17:2
2 even as You gave Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

John 18:9
9 that the word might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."

Romans 5:21
21 that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:1
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:32-39
33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,"For Thy sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Timothy 1:16-17
16 And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1 John 2:25
25 And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:1-4
3:1 If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Hebrews 7:25
25 Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

1 Peter 1:4-6
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.

1 John 5:13-20
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Jude 24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

[Grimey]

One more - what are the works of God?
John 6:27-30
27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal." 28 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

[DataJack]

wow...i just want to know where it says in the bible god created us to die? and then join him and jesus in heaven?....was not his first commandment to adam and eve as follows..."be fruitfull and multiply and have domination of the earth"? no where does it say then die and come to heaven...does not god say that his word MUST come to be? the bible is so easy to understand if you want to hear the truth and not have your ears tickled. jesus was sent here to redeem us through his blood sacrifice. to understand this you have to understand gods sense of justice...its PERFECT and in this case goes as follows. adam was a perfect man who sinned and deserved to die and did die...jesus was a perfect man and did not sin and did not deserve to die and died.perfect justice....i would also like to point out that adam walked in the garden of eden with god and spoke with him...thats recorded in the bible...but i do not think jesus walked the earth with god and spoke to him the way adam did. bottom line here is did god command us to die?..no he did not...he said the wages of sin is death...as we are all born into sin we all die...do we go to heaven when we die...i don't think so as there is going to be a resurection. why have a resurection if we are already in heaven? or in hell paying for our sins?...would that not be cruel of god to resurect us back into our earthly bodies once we were in heaven? which brings me to another question.....is god a loving god or a cruel one? and that question is a yes or no question.

[Grimey]

Whom are you responding to? I don't follow what your line of questioning has to do with the topic.

[pack momma]

YIKES! You can't lose something you didn't earn. You can't lose something that is the complete work of God. God gives us the faith. God preserves us in faith. No one can snatch us out of His hand and He will never cast us out.


Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. It is the gift of God.

God reveals truth to us.

We are not born of the will of man, but the will of God.

God gives us to Christ. He will never cast us out.

The only way we can come to faith is if God draws us to himself. We don't even get credit for coming to faith in him.

We can't come to faith unless it is granted to us by God.

God opens the door of faith.

The Lord opens your heart.

Our belief in Him is granted to us.

Every good thing, including our faith, comes from above. He brings us forth by the word of truth that we might be the first fruits (saved).

If God does all the work of our salvation, there is nothing we can do to lose it.


Yikes is Right.
Whats is your comment on the scripts I gave you, or didn't you read them?

1Peter 5:4 "you will recieve the crown of life"
Rev 3:11 "keep holding fast that no one TAKE your crown"
Heb 10:26 "if we knowingly practice sin after recieving knowledge of truth
there is no longer ANY sacrifice for sins left"
Matt 24:18 " he that endures to the end will BE saved"
Then of course there is James 2:14,17,24-26 and Heb 5:9 "Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him.

works and obedience to prove one's faith. Responsibility, not a free ride, but a gift given freely to those who are obedient and exercise (work) their faith.

If I live in the shadow of an active volcano and I have faith it is going to blow... that faith isn't going to save me unless I do something about it.


A few comments on your quotes, Sorry I don't know how to show only what I want to., so you will have to go back to your post to review your scriptures

1.[John 10:27-30 ] true, but he is talking about the sheep as a composit group, not individuales, or there would be no need to "leave the 99 in seach of the l who had strayed" another scrip

2. [John 6:36-40] "not my will the the will of him who sent me????? another topic, but here he was referring to himself as the bread of life and likened it to eating and drinking of his blood upon which many (already believers) left. are they still saved? Jesus asked Peter if he wanted to leave also, of course the answer was no., but if he had, would he have still been saved? And of course there is Judas. Hand picked by Jesus after an agonizing night of prayer. Chosen as it were by means of the holy spirit. Is he still saved? Again responsibility. A free gift that can be taken away if one proves unworthy (not by sin, we cannot help that) but by willful disobedience.

"Eph 2:8-10
Mat 16:17 and John 1:12-13 no problem

"God gives us to Christ, he will never cast us out"
Not quite....Romans 11;17-24 referring to Natural Israel as an olive tree with its "disobedient" brances being lopped off, though the rootstock of the tree being holy. and wild branches (converted gentiles) being grafted in. now verse 21 is the clincher. "If God did not spare the natural branches, why then should he spare you?" again responsibility


James 1:16-18 just a comment. it talks about firstfruits. Every one knows that the firstfruits are the beginning of the harvest. what about the other fruit,,,,, the full harvest. where will that be?


I have no problem with your scriptures, only the use of them.

1 Cor 10;12 "beware he who thinks he is standing, lest he fall"

Rev. 3:16 a warning to the congregation of Laodicia. "I am going to vomit you out of my mouth" sounds like lack of obedience, again responsibility

If it were all just a free ride, there would not be so many cautions to the early christians about sectarianism, setting themselved up over their brothers, fornication, things sacrificed to idols. maintaining faith under trials, opposing the devil,

2 Peter 20:20-22 makes a great point. "if having once accepted Jesus, they get involved again in the defilements of the world, the final conditions have become worse for them than if they had not been enlightened in the first place" likening them to dogs returning to their vomit.

(note; all scriptures paraphrazed because I didn't feel like writing every word.

You make many wonderful points for life being a free gift from God, which it is, but none for the responsiblity we have in caring for that gift, or the obedience required in the use of that precious gift.

[Justawoman]

I know the word "gift" is used for what Christ did for us. But I have a problem with that word "gift". A gift is something someone gives me and I don't have to do anything in return but accept and say my thanks. There is more to Christianity than just accepting it and saying my thanks.

Salvation can be lost. God even told the church at Sardis that if they didn't repent he would blot their name out of the book of life. I would say that is loosing one's salvation, wouldn't you? Revelations 3:5

I do think, however, that you all got off the topic of what CG posted. This is suppose to be about sin-eaters, fact or myth. Where this topic is headed would be a great thread started in the Biblical side of Frappyland.

[Grimey]

Yikes! Where did all the Protestants go?

[Noseypoo]

To hell {devil}






j/k {rotflmbo}

[Grimey]

LOL! Perfect answer.

[DataJack]

james 2 verses 17 and 26...
i am replying to you grimey...please answer the obvious conflict james has with some of your qouted scriptures...and pack momma is saying almost exactly what i would say.....and i qoute her "I have no problem with your scriptures, only the use of them." and say......ditto
and grimey......you also said " Whom are you responding to? I don't follow what your line of questioning has to do with the topic. " well......i don't see what your line of answers has to do with the question either...but i was trying to reply to your answers........guess i am in the wrong thread again as it seems to have gone astray......oh well...

[Justawoman]

guess i am in the wrong thread again as it seems to have gone astray......oh well...


It get off topic a few posts back Jack. Don't sweat it.

[pack momma]

actually I thought we kind of finished the sin-eater topic and sort of evolved into this one. guess it needs a new thread

[Grimey]

Pack Momma and DataJack,

I have plenty of responses for your points; however, I get enough of this type of fun at BasicTheology.com (http://www.basictheology.com/forums/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=37). Here's what happens: I give you my answer; you point out all the holes in my answer; I point out the holes in your rebuttal; you point out the holes in my rebuttal. It never ends, because neither of us is going to change his mind. There are hundreds of threads at BasicTheology.com on these topics. You might have more fun arguing theology over there.

For the casual observer...Most Christian scholars would agree that the eternal security question -- basically Calvinism versus Arminianism -- is an in-house debate (a debate among Christians). In other words, Christians can believe either and still be considered orthodox.

You can read debates about it till your eyes are crossed at www.BasicTheology.com (http://www.basictheology.com/). You can also read some of the definitions of terms at http://www.basictheology.com/definitions/. Have fun! I'm done.

[pack momma]

Pack Momma and DataJack,
For the casual observer...Most Christian scholars would agree that the eternal security question -- basically Calvinism versus Arminianism -- is an in-house debate (a debate among Christians). In other words, Christians can believe either and still be considered orthodox.

. Have fun! I'm done.


Good for them. I personally don't presume to have my salvation "in the bag" as it were. The scriptures gives the analagy of a "race" (Heb 12:1) in that we should continue active and endure. following Jesus' own example. So I will continue striving to be an even better Christian. Sorry if you felt your toes stepped on. Hebrews 10:24 also tells us we should be continually urging and encouraging our fellow Christians as we see "the day drawing near"
I see it coming, like a sledghammer. Anyone, in my thinking, may have any ideology they please, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to encourage them to think and get an even deeper understand, same as I continually try to do by considering what others have to say. As I said before, the scriptures have the final say, and it has to make sense to me or I continue to search.
If that is called having fun arguing? then so be it. In the final analysis God has the only interpretation that means anything at all, and it is him, and no one else we answer to. Our responsibility is not to be led astray or by the nose, by those who would tell us what we should believe instead of, as Hebrews 5:15 mentions about having our powers of perception trained, and being able to explain thoroughly to anyone who asks of us a "reason for our faith"

[Grimey]

I am tired of debating it. I was trying to be gracious by pointing out that either viewpoint is still considered orthodox Christianity.

You sound like you are mad at me because I don't want to keep debating with you. I'm telling you that I have debated this topic till I'm blue in the face elsewhere, and it doesn't really accomplish anything. You sound like you are convinced that if we just trade a few more posts that I will see the error of my theology and see it your way. It ain't happening. Better theologians than both of us have debated this for hundreds of years. I've read the books. I've heard the arguments. I think I'm right, but I have enough humility to realize that I could be wrong. Hence, the in-house debate.

If you are trying to say that it isn't an in-house debate and that yours is the only correct Christian viewpoint and that those who disagree with you are non-believers, then you are way off base, according to most Christian scholars.

[pack momma]

Mad at you? not at all. Make you see the "error" or your ways? sorry, not that either. You were the one pouncing on me (and Data Jack, I didn't realize we were in cahoots) I merely thought I had as much right to express my humble opinions of any subject as you do? You can think whatever you want, but so can I. Only one thing I will say to you about being dead wrong. Do not put words into my mouth. I never inferrred that mine was the only right way, only what makes sense to me. As far as the theologans are concerned they have been battling it out for years and still can't agree on much of anything, so they just accept it all. Again my opinion and mine alone. You or anyone can agree or not, that's for you to decide not me. If you think I'm out in left field or a heretic...fine soapbox finished, good idea ..done {curtsy}

[Justawoman]

Can't we all just agree to disagree?

[Grimey]

I don't think you are a heretic. That's why I said what I said about it being an in-house debate. I'm sorry that I mis-interpreted your post. You sounded mad to me. My bad. Please forgive me.

I didn't say that you and datajack are in cahoots, but you are both making the same argument and both asking me to answer it. That's the only reason I addressed both of you.

[DataJack]

All that i am trying to ask here is this: Grimey, please explain to me the obvious conflict that the Apostle James has with some of the scriptures you have quoted.....thats all. as ALL scripture is inspired by god does this conflict make god a liar or has scripture been used in the wrong context....thats all i am asking...i thought we were to be like the people of Beroca [book of Acts chapter 17 verse 11] and examine the scriptures to make sure that what someone is saying [including ourselves] is the truth. I debate this and read the debates here because of the book of John chapter 17 verse 3...not so i can be one up on some one...that is not my reason for debating...i debate so i may learn and therefore ask you...teach me...and use scripture...thankyou

[Justawoman]

I am tired of debating it. I was trying to be gracious by pointing out that either viewpoint is still considered orthodox Christianity.

You sound like you are mad at me because I don't want to keep debating with you. I'm telling you that I have debated this topic till I'm blue in the face elsewhere, and it doesn't really accomplish anything. You sound like you are convinced that if we just trade a few more posts that I will see the error of my theology and see it your way. It ain't happening. Better theologians than both of us have debated this for hundreds of years. I've read the books. I've heard the arguments. I think I'm right, but I have enough humility to realize that I could be wrong. Hence, the in-house debate.

If you are trying to say that it isn't an in-house debate and that yours is the only correct Christian viewpoint and that those who disagree with you are non-believers, then you are way off base, according to most Christian scholars.

I think DataJack and PackMomma need to re-read this post by Grimey and respect her wishes to drop the subject. It is becoming more like antagonizing than debating.

[Noseypoo]

Just use your Mod powers and lock the thread {fonzy}

[Justawoman]

Is it called for though? I tend to be a bit gun-ho and take things so personal. I just feel for Grimey. I hate explaining myself over and over.

[jamesglewisf]

BTW, errrrrrr... Grimey is a guy.

No need to close the thread. Grimey's a big boy. He can handle it. I think he made it clear he was done.

[Justawoman]

OOPS!! I do believe I knew Grimey was a guy.{dunce} Too much estrogen in here lately. I figured Grimey could take care of HIMSELF. Sorry for the mistake Grimey on the gender. They say the mind is the first to go. Did you buy that excuse?{angel2} I couldn't help myself sticking up for you though. Sorry if I stepped on your toes. {flowers}

[pack momma]

I don't think you are a heretic. That's why I said what I said about it being an in-house debate. I'm sorry that I mis-interpreted your post. You sounded mad to me. My bad. Please forgive me.

I didn't say that you and datajack are in cahoots, but you are both making the same argument and both asking me to answer it. That's the only reason I addressed both of you.


I was going to PM you, but decided to go public. Yes perhaps we have misunderstood each other. Apology accepted as well as extended

Thank you for the tip of Basic Theology.com, but I am not interested in those types of games either.

Romans 12:18

[Tuadia]

This is a message for Grimey....I have been searching on and off ( mostly OFF!) since the seventies for info on Sin Eaters. I first became aware of this practice after seeing Rod Serling's Night Gallery (episode #27) entitled " Sins of the Father" starring Richard "John Boy Walton" Thomas!! It's about a poor, starving boy from a Welsh village who becomes a sin eater for survival purposes. I don't recall that it had anything to do with the Bible, spirituality, etc. ...He was just HUNGRY!!! ( I also can't remember how it ends so I might be mistaken!)
Anyhoo, regardless of why they did it or whether it was right or wrong, I find it to be an interesting custom. Just thought you might like to add this little tid-bit to your research!!

[Grimey]

Glad you joined!

I think you might mean CuriousG. I'm not the least bit interested in Sin Eaters. I think they are a load of rubbish.

[ladybug56]

This is the reason why I never discuss Religion or Politics, it's just too private & personal. Everyone still ends up with they're own believes after raising the Blood Pressure! it's a very personal choice & a very private one..Hey, I'm not a do -gooder here, but isn't there enough unrest in this world of ours? Debates are never dicussed rationally or maturally,all it does is end up in hatred & anger! Most of our wars are over Religion & our varying beliefs & not respecting one another's personal beliefs, maybe this is why some of us have such a great love of animal's, there is no judgement,nothing but unconditional love.

[DataJack]

This is the reason why I never discuss Religion or Politics, it's just too private & personal. Everyone still ends up with they're own believes after raising the Blood Pressure! it's a very personal choice & a very private one..Hey, I'm not a do -gooder here, but isn't there enough unrest in this world of ours? Debates are never dicussed rationally or maturally,all it does is end up in hatred & anger! Most of our wars are over Religion & our varying beliefs & not respecting one another's personal beliefs, maybe this is why some of us have such a great love of animal's, there is no judgement,nothing but unconditional love.

well ladybug i have to reply to this post of yours...first of all this "debate" here has been rational and respectfull...when someone took a post the wrong way and said something an apology was very quick in being given....as far as anger goes i think the only one angry here is me...and thats not because people have i different veiws than mine. i am angry because i do not think i am expressing my veiws in a rational way so the others may see what i am trying to say...and that raises MY blood pressure.(don't know about anyone else)...if anything i have grown in knowledge with the posts that are in this thread and have learned to be MORE accepting of anothers veipoint and to stop being such a hard case....as far as respect goes i respect everyone here and the last thing i want to do is be disrespectfull...i have been disrespectfull and when shown the error of my ways i have said sorry and meant it...
lol....i have to take the advice that has been given me here and loosen up....lol...(while i get my army ready to attack those people with different religous veiws than mine)<- - - - supposed to be funny....anyways....i said i was not going to reply to this thread again, but i just HAD to say something ....... lol....by the way........how the heck does one get all those smilies hopping around?

[ladybug56]

Hi Jack, I understand how "debates" can get out of hand, especially on the net, I've had experiences myself where someone takes you the wrong way. It's very difficult to express ones self with just text as there is only one tone of voice,different than sitting with someone across from you & being able to hear that tone of voice,along with the facial expressions,makes it very difficult without that, I guess this is why we have the emots, as it helps in a big way..I probably should have kept my two cents out of it LOl, since I wasn't in the debate anyway!, so I do appologize for that.. I'll just bypass that thread from now on LOL..


To get your silly, willy, dancing billies.. just click on the smiley above & scroll down till you see "more smileys" click on that & a window will pop up! lots of cute ones...Hope you have a nice evening ;) Eileen

[Justawoman]

I love your signature ladybug. I would like to think that a world without men would leave us all alot more emotionally healthy. I bet we would be a lot skinnier overall. No need to raid the refrig for comfort food when the men in our lives say assinine things we dont' understand.

Not directed at you Jack. Did you ever think you would have so many women in your life???? Baffling ain't it? I have to add too that the men on Frappy are just wonderful. Such gentlemen. Your Momma's did a good job. :)

[DataJack]

Hi Jack, I understand how "debates" can get out of hand, especially on the net, I've had experiences myself where someone takes you the wrong way. It's very difficult to express ones self with just text as there is only one tone of voice,different than sitting with someone across from you & being able to hear that tone of voice,along with the facial expressions,makes it very difficult without that, I guess this is why we have the emots, as it helps in a big way..I probably should have kept my two cents out of it LOl, since I wasn't in the debate anyway!, so I do appologize for that.. I'll just bypass that thread from now on LOL..


To get your silly, willy, dancing billies.. just click on the smiley above & scroll down till you see "more smileys" click on that & a window will pop up! lots of cute ones...Hope you have a nice evening ;) Eileen

absolutely not...don't you dare bypass ANY thread that you would like to comment on here at frappydoo...we all comment on whatever we want to comment on with the hope that no one gets hurt or upset with the post...most of us have thick skins.we all know it is hard to understand the emotions behind the typed word at times because like you say......its one tone, no facial expressions etc.besides...when an explenation is needed on a hurtful post it is usually VERY quickly given. no one here is out to hurt anyone...frappydoo is an opinion exchange and as such just about anything( within reason) can be said.when a post surpasses such said reason the mods will get into it...i don't see any mods giving me a pm and for sure you have not recieved any over this post on this thread...so all i can say is...keep posting bay-bee.......lol

[Hannamoren]

Hey Jack, I think I can sence a change in you lately! I have to edmit, first when I came, you scared me a bit with very strong opinions and not much room for more. Just like a bear.{nudge} But now you are this sweat, nice, and handsome(ok, that might have been over the edge {laughc})very nice to talk to! Our own little Teddy bear! Good for you, I like it!!!{woohoo}

[Noseypoo]

Nah, I knew there was a funny guy behind all the grumpyness ;)

[DataJack]

Hey Jack, I think I can sence a change in you lately! I have to edmit, first when I came, you scared me a bit with very strong opinions and not much room for more. Just like a bear.{nudge} But now you are this sweat, nice, and handsome(ok, that might have been over the edge {laughc})very nice to talk to! Our own little Teddy bear! Good for you, I like it!!!{woohoo}
all that i can say is the wife finds it very quiet around the house here...i don't speak much anymore ....my tongue is too sore from biting it.........lol

[Hannamoren]

{rofl}

[Justawoman]

all that i can say is the wife finds it very quiet around the house here...i don't speak much anymore ....my tongue is too sore from biting it.........lol
Hard to find a bandaid for that kind of injury isn't it? Wouldn't duct tape have worked better? {toothy}

[jamesglewisf]

I think at 5 pages, this one has gone long enough. I'm closing this thread.