An Abortion Question

[rs0522]

Actually there are two questions about which I would like the opinion of the members.

1) Is it necessary for all Christians to oppose abortion? That is to say, is it clear enough from the Bible or wherever you get your theology from that abortion is un-ambiguously wrong?

2) If you oppose abortion, would you allow an exception in the case of rape or incest? If you accept that the fetus is a separate human life, is it fair to destroy that life because of misconduct on the part of the father? If the purpose is to avoid suffering on the part of the mother, or (in the case of incest) to avoid genetic defect in the fetus, does this not make it all right to abort for birth defects or to spare the mother suffering for other reasons?

All thoughtful opinions welcomed. Flame me if you must; I will try to extract what is being said from the post anyway.

Regards,
rs0522

[41mama]

Yikes! This is a hard question. If my young daughter (well, she's 16 months old now, but I guess I mean my adolescent daughter) got pregnant through rape, especially if the father were a family member, I would have a really hard time. However, God didn't necessarily intend us not to suffer and I'm not sure having an abortion would avoid suffering.

"Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their
souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator." 1 Peter 4:19

"But may the God of all grace, Who called us to His eternal glory by
Christ Jesus, after you have suffered awhile, perfect, establish,
strengthen, and settle you." 1 Peter 5:10

Romans 8:28 says that God is working all things for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. I won't say I've always used my suffering in the way Joseph in the Old Testament did -- he forgave his brothers and allowed God to take what Satan intended for evil and caused it for good. However, I'm not sure going through the suffering of an abortion would be better than going through the suffering of having a child. As far as children with disabilities go, that's another huge issue, but I think God creates every life for a purpose.
The issue that's a little less cut and dried to me is the life of the mother. If a woman has a tubal pregnancy, she will die if that pregnancy isn't removed, and so will the unborn baby. This seems a no-brainer as far as handling it as a medical procedure like any other. If she's diabetic though and had an unintended pregnancy, who knows? I think if the woman is seeking God's will though it will again come for good. Now I hope nobody flames me for my position. I guess I'd better stop now before I get in more trouble. Christie

[jamesglewisf]

The Bible states that life begins inside the womb, not when the child is born. And the Bible says that it is wrong to kill innocent people, which babies most certainly are.

Here are some references where God talks about life in the womb. God had a plan for these babies even before they were born:

Genesis 25:23
23 And the LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; and two peoples shall be separated from your body; and one people shall be stronger than the other; and the older shall serve the younger."

Judges 13:5
5 "For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines."

I'm going to split this out into several posts so it is not so long to read.

[jamesglewisf]

Samson's mom was not allowed to drink, because the boy in her womb was not supposed to have any alcohol from the womb to death:

Judges 13:7
7 "But he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'"

In his Psalm, David wrote about how God formed him in the womb and had a plan for him even before he was born. Don’t let the poetic imagery of "the depths of the earth" confuse you.

Psalm 139:13-16
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

[jamesglewisf]

Both Isaiah and Jeremiah were told that God called them from the womb.

Isaiah 49:1, 5
1 Listen to me, O islands, and pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called me from the womb; from the body of My mother He named me.
5 And now says the LORD, who formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (for I am honored in the sight of the LORD, and My God is My strength),


Jeremiah 1:5
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

[jamesglewisf]

The angel told Zacharias this about his unborn son (John the Baptist):

Luke 1:13-16
13 But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John.
14 "And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.
15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb.
16 "And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God.

Luke 1:41
41 And it came about that when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

[jamesglewisf]

Paul talked about being set apart from the womb.

Galatians 1:15-16
15 But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased
16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,

[RoadRunner]

This is perhaps one of the most important verses. It talks about accidentally harming or killing either a mother or her unborn child. When a mother gives birth prematurely because of an injury caused by someone else, any harm or death of either the mother or child is the responsibility of the person who caused it.

Exodus 21:22-25
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

That is about as close to a verse on abortion as you will get. But this is about an accidental death. Abortion is not an accident.

[RoadRunner]

When does life begin? Here is the question I want to ask: Why take the possibility of being wrong? I'm going with at conception.

Scripture clearly indicates that God has plans for us before we are born and that we are born for a purpose.

[jamesglewisf]

BTW, rs0522, I hope you understand I am just listing some verses for you. I assume that's what you wanted. You asked some excellent questions.

[jamesglewisf]

Can I second everything that 41mama said?

One of the assumptions that we like to make in life is that if God loved me, he would never allow me to suffer. This has no Biblical basis, as 41mama pointed out.

[jamesglewisf]

2) If you oppose abortion, would you allow an exception in the case of rape or incest? If you accept that the fetus is a separate human life, is it fair to destroy that life because of misconduct on the part of the father? If the purpose is to avoid suffering on the part of the mother, or (in the case of incest) to avoid genetic defect in the fetus, does this not make it all right to abort for birth defects or to spare the mother suffering for other reasons?
I don't see any Biblical basis for it. Rape and incest occurred when the Bible was written. I don't think God slipped and forgot to mention it. I hate to say something so simple, but two wrongs do not make a right.

[jamesglewisf]

I have talked to many women who have had abortions. I have never talked to one who was proud of it in retrospect. Most had gone to some kind of counseling to address the guilt they were still experiencing 10+ years later.

I think in cases of rape and incest, you are just adding one more thing to feel awful about. The poor woman is going to be emotionally scarred badly enough because of being violated. Adding an abortion to that awful memory is not going to make it any better. She will then have the devastation of the rape and the guilt of the abortion.

[jamesglewisf]

So how do you deal with a woman who has had an abortion? You show her the same love and care that you would show a woman who has not had one.

If she asks you if you think it is wrong, you tell her the truth--yes.

If she asks you if God can ever forgive her, you tell her that all she has to do is ask. Jesus Christ was 100% without sin and completely innocent. He was crucified without cause, and yet he offered forgiveness to the people who murdered Him. The greatest writer of the New Testament, Paul, murdered Christians before he saw the light. He was forgiven and became an incredible Christian.

God loves us all. God offers forgiveness to us all.

[41mama]

Well, maybe this is a red herring, but it seems to me to be a time when taking the life of an unborn child would have been allowed. Jacob's son Judah had promised his son's widow, Tamar, that one of his other sons would marry her when he was old enough, as was the custom. (Gen. 38). He broke that promise, and Tamar seduced Judah and conceived what turned out to be twin sons. Judah was about to burn her to death when she sent him the things he had given her when they were intimate. He then rescinded this order and one of the boys, Perez, was in the geneology of Jesus (Lk 3:32). What does this mean? It's okay for the unborn to pay with their lives for their mothers' sins, but not their fathers'? Anyway. Just another reminder that this is a complicated issue. Also the Exodus 22 verse can be interpreted as no serious injuy to the woman, and that the "premature birth" refers to a miscarriage. In any case, the next verse says that if you hit your slave in the eye and blind him or her, you must allow the slave to go free. There are definite problems with basing our behavior on Old Testament law. Christie I'm getting wore and worse, aren't I?

[In_His_Shadow]

The only thing I can add to this discussion is:

I have two cousins that are adopted. One was born of rape the other to a very young teenage girl.

Now one is married and a doctor serving his country in the Navy. The other is married with one child and she is a teacher.

What would our lifes and all those that these precious people touch everyday have been like had their birth mothers opted out of their pregnacies.

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't pray for those two mothers where ever they are. These two birth mothers have so blessed our lifes I just know that somehow, someway, God has let them, in return for their sacrifices (which it was a great one) be blessed in return.

CJ

[rs0522]

Wow, I leave for a couple hours to get some work done, and the thread takes off! Kewl!

I have gleaned the following from the responses (thanks to all):

- That abortion is wrong because God has a plan for unborn children. Obviously He cannot have a plan for all unborn, or else there would be no miscarriages. Further, most of the verses cited seem to be implying that God's plan involved their whole life from before they were born to the end of their lives. This would not address those who were fated to die before birth, which I guess would have to include abortions as well as miscarriages.

- Roadrunner had two especially interesting posts.
When does life begin? Here is the question I want to ask: Why take the possibility of being wrong?

It seems to me that there are bad consequences to assuming that life begins at conception as well as not doing so. If abortion is in fact allowed, why not find that out and act on it?

He further cites

Exodus 21:22-25
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined
whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,

I find this a particularly interesting passage. I looked it up in my Revised Standard Version. I used to be able to read Koine Greek, and I found the RSV to be the best translation available. I do not read Hebrew, but I have read several different Old Testament translations, and most of them seem to be in agreement with the RSV. I therefore tend to rely on the RSV for correct translations.

The RSV says that the 'serious injury' mentioned in v.23 refers to serious injury to the mother. It further translates the term here translated as 'gives birth prematurely' as 'miscarries', i.e. the baby is born dead or dies immediately. It is only injury to the mother that is punished as 'life for life'. This seems to imply that the unborn fetus is not considered on a par with the fully human mother. Thus this verse, depending on what is the 'correct' translation, seems to support abortion, not argue against it.

- It seems that consensus on the list is that abortion should not be allowed even in the case of rape or incest. This seems logically consistent to me.

Interesting stuff, all of this.

Thanks to all for your responses.

[jamesglewisf]

The Hebrew word translated prematurely born is:

3318 yatsa' (yaw-tsaw');

a primitive root; to go (causatively, bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proxim.:

KJV-- X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.

That is from Strong's.

It means to bring forth, to to bring out.

Every commentator I read from MacArthur to Sproul said that this verse talked about the woman and/or the child being injured. I think it is a valid passage to consider when discussing unborn children. I think it was quoted to show how God values the unborn, not for any other reason.

[jamesglewisf]

Originally posted by 41mama
Well, maybe this is a red herring, but it seems to me to be a time when taking the life of an unborn child would have been allowed. Jacob's son Judah had promised his son's widow, Tamar, that one of his other sons would marry her when he was old enough, as was the custom. (Gen. 38). He broke that promise, and Tamar seduced Judah and conceived what turned out to be twin sons. Judah was about to burn her to death when she sent him the things he had given her when they were intimate. He then rescinded this order and one of the boys, Perez, was in the geneology of Jesus (Lk 3:32). What does this mean? It's okay for the unborn to pay with their lives for their mothers' sins, but not their fathers'? Anyway. Just another reminder that this is a complicated issue. Also the Exodus 22 verse can be interpreted as no serious injuy to the woman, and that the "premature birth" refers to a miscarriage. In any case, the next verse says that if you hit your slave in the eye and blind him or her, you must allow the slave to go free. There are definite problems with basing our behavior on Old Testament law. Christie I'm getting wore and worse, aren't I?
I'm going to agree with you that this is a red herring. I don't think you can say that it was OK to kill an unborn child based upon this passage. This passage simply shows the hyprocrisy of Judah. When confronted he said, "She is more righteous than I." Quoting it as proof that abortion is OK would be like quoting David and Bathsheba as proof that adultery is OK.

[jamesglewisf]

I looked up the RSV, NIV, NKJ, KJV, and NAS. Only the RSV said, "the one who hurt her shall be fined."

All the others called him "the offender" or "he."

I also looked it up my Interlinear Bible, and there are no words in the Hebrew that mean "the one who hurt her." I don't think I would go with the RSV in this instance.

BUT, we are quibbling over a few words in one verse. The overwhelming evidence is that God forms us in the womb and knows us before we are born or miscarried or aborted.

Our firstborn died at birth. Does that mean that God did not have a plan for her? No. It just means that His plan did not include a long life. She certainly had a huge impact on our lives.

I also don't think that God is caught off-guard by abortions or miscarriages. He's not sitting up there saying, "I had such awesome plans for Tony. It's too bad I was thwarted by that abortionist." I think roadrunner just stated poorly that God values life before birth.

[jamesglewisf]

One thing I think is wrong about abortion is the presumptions it makes. It presumes that I know better than God does about whether or not a child should be born.

It is God who decides whether or not a woman conceives. If a woman is pregnant, regardless of whether it was consensual sex, rape, or incest, it is because God caused her to conceive.

Presuming that it would be better for the child not to be born or better for the woman for the child not to be born is not really my place. It is God's.

[Military Mom]

In general it is my strong feeling that the so called 'products of conception' are indeed the very early, precious and delicate beginnings of a life. However, I tend to advocate the government 'allowing' a woman to have an abortion performed in a safe place accompanied by much education and counselling regarding their choice before as well as after the fact.

From the dawn of time women have been inducing abortions on themselves, and with or without a government's advocacy this practice will continue. That is reality. If a woman feels trapped, helpless, scared and powerless by her pregnancy, she will seek a way out of it. Even if it means the possibility of losing her own life in the process.

Abortion clinics are often thought of as evil places where doctors without heart or conscience rip innocent lives from young mother's wombs. In truth, before a woman is permitted to have an abortion, she must undergo extensive, intensive counselling during which her motives for having the abortion are examined. Other alternatives are offered to her to include adoption or means to financially and emotionally cope with the responsibility of having a baby. She is ENCOURAGED to do these things. She has the option of stoping and changing her mind at any time.

The idea behind writing about all of this is that it's better for women to have a place to go where correct information on all aspects of her decision will be provided and safe medical care will be given, rather than no place at all besides some back-alley infection laden flop-house.

Some people may say, "good - this is where she deserves to go if she is cruel enough to want to kill her own child!"

So destroy two lives instead of one to satisfy the public's greedy need for vengeance? And what about the possibility of the horror of an incorrectly performed/incomplete abortion where the child's life is spared, but at the expense of extreme mental or physical disability. (IT CAN HAPPEN AND HAS!)

As open minded as I try to be, I remain judgemental or at best undecided about the reasons why a woman would coose to abort. In my mind, abortion should not be used as a means for birth control. Repeat offenders should have their tubes tied. In other words, if you come in to have a second abortion, you should have to sign a legally binding contract to have your tubes tied, period. Sure, there are ways around this and possible reasons for exceptions, but not many at all that I can see.

As far as the religious aspects of it, I am agnostic, so I cannot offer any constructive comments there.

My question is, is there anyone who knows of a sound, humane reason for a partial birth abortion? The only thing I can think of is extreme deformity detected later in pregnancy (1st ultrasound is normally at 20 wks/ around 4 mos - I think at that point it would be partial birth). OR extreme risk to the mother's life - BUT that is a very individual decision that can only be made by those who are IN the situation.

A penny for everyone's thoughts....

Mommy

PS As for me, personally, if I were to have an unwanted, accidental pregnancy, I would NOT opt for abortion. But if my life were in grave danger, I probably would - no sense in 2 lives being lost, and can always try again. If my baby were deformed someway, it would depend upon the degree of severity. If I were raped, then, yes, I would abort.

[kezzer]

When I was pregnant with my daughter I was very young.My Husband and I made the appointment for an abortion and that was that. We didn't speak of it until the day of. A half hour before we realized we'd be making a bigger mistake to abort this child than if we started a family so young. 5 months later we were married and a month after that I gave birth to the most precious baby girl I had ever seen! Not a day goes by that I regret skipping that appointment. Sometimes I do wish I had waited but I never regret it. To this day I can't even believe that the thought of an abortion had even stepped foot in my head. In a case where mother and child were in danger then I believe is the only right time for one. If I were raped I would give the baby up for adoption.

[Debby]

wow. This is a very hard thread for me to reply to, i avoided it at first, but I am going to just tell you my feelings here and be honest, and if anyone chooses to judge me, so be it. I have had an abortion. I am 35 now, but when I was 19 I got pregnant. I thought the guy really cared, but of course I was wrong, and when I told him I was pregnant, he laughed at me and said it probably wasnt his, and to leave him alone...even though he was the only one I had slept with. I was a wreck. I was so confused, and young, and my parents were penticostal christains who I knew would be so ashamed of me and so hurt, if they knew i had been having sex. I had ben taught to wait for marriage. I knew my mothers heakth was fragil, and I was afraid this would send her and my father over the edge, not to mention I was totally unprepared for a baby, and I was going to college full time. I was so scared, i felt so alone...I had never beleived in abortion, but when in that circumstance, I felt it my only way out...so I made the appointment and I went. People were picketing outside the clinic that day...and it really was one of the hardest things I have had to do. I knew down deep inside that I was doing something horribly wrong, but I did it anyway. So that was many years ago, and I have regreted it ever since. I will always feel like a part of me is missing...and if I could go back in time I would go back to that scared 19 yr. old and shake her,and say what do you think you are doing?????????? But I can't go back. I have asked forgiveness soooooooo many times, although I know I was forgiven the very first time I asked. It was a mistake. A horrible horrible mistake. So what makes it even worse was that if I had had the child, it was due on my birthday, in October, and this past month, on my 35th B-day....it would have been 15. i think about it even more when my birthday rolls around every year. And when dad passed away a couple months ago...I thought about what would happen if when he got to heaven a small child (because I know he/she went to heaven) came up to him and said, hello you are my grandpa. I would have no way to explain to him how sorry i was for what I had done, and how much I regreted it. But I think that if that did happen, that God would have told my father how very sorry I was.

[Beezwax]

Most ppl would agree with me when I say, this question is probably one of the most debated subjects out there today.
I feel that making a decision to have an abortion is a very difficult one to make...but you have to look at all the facts.
Here are a few:
Is this pregnancy the result of rape or incest?
Is this pregnancy going to change the future plans of a fifteen year old girl?
Can you afford to take care of this child properly?
You can't expect a woman to look at her child everyday and be reminded that the child was not conceived of love, but of a violation.
A fifteen year old girl who made a mistake, has the option to continue her education and have the family she wants when she is ready.
As for the last question, being the father of six...it is very expensive to care for them, so I do believe if you can't afford them, don't have them.
The best birth control is abstinence!!
I do believe in a woman's right to choose...but would never condemn someone who thinks otherwise.

[TWTCommish]

I'm not going to judge you - I'm sorry to hear it all, but I'm sure God has forgiven you if you are sincere in your apology.

I think that for Christians, abortion is a very clear cut issue for a number of reasons. For non-Christians: it's not worth the risk. If you don't know when life begins, then how can you justify taking what is essentially a guess?

[jamesglewisf]

Debby, I truly meant what I said in my post. You won't get any condemnation here. Thanks for being honest. I'll agree with Chris--you are already forgiven. Your slate has been wiped clean, and God threw away the slate, eraser, and chalk. Thanks again for sharing your story.

[Military Mom]

How brave for you to post that here, especially considering that you haven't yet forgiven yourself. You used the best judgement that you were capable of at that young, inexperienced time in your life. I can definately understand you thinking about how old your son or daughter would be now, how different things would be, etc. Anyone with a conscience would.

I hope that someday you can find it in your heart to forgive yourself. You deserve it. I can't offer much if anything in the way of spiritual guidance, but I can draw from my own experiences. I have done a number of things in the past for which I suffer deep regret and remorse daily. Eventually, there comes a time when you begin moving on, allowing some distace to come between yourself and your actions. Instead of shaking that lost young girl in your mind, extend a hand. I'm not saying pat yourself on the back for what you did, but try to be a friend to yourself for a change. The whole world can be a dark place when you spend so much energy turned inwards against yourself.


I do not think that you are a bad person for what you did. It sounds like you are a good person who was in a bad situation. You aren't there anymore.

I wish you peace and healing.

mm

[41mama]

well, I don't know why they don't have a smiley for hugs, but hugs to you, Debby! Sorry you were in such a difficult situation. When my brother married his fiancee, she was pregnant, and it was very difficult for my mom, so I can see why it would feel so impossible to face your parents without the support of the baby's father. Our local Christian pregnancy center has a support group for women who've had abortions. I wonder if something like that would help if it's available in your area? I wasn't clear where you're at spiritually, but remember I John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Christie

[Debby]

Thank you all for your kind words, yes, I do need to forgive myself. It is so hard though. I know God has forgiven me, and I know he loves me, and maybe just maybe I can someday help out a girl who is in the situation I was in, and help her to not make the same decision I did.

[utah007]

Debby that was a very moving post.
I'll toss in my opinion, taken as it may. I happen to follow the same line of thought as military mom.
Like James, every female I have talked to after an abortion has SERIOUS psychological issues. And like our courageous Debby they still have trouble forgiving themselves years and years later. At the same time I am in favor of pro choice. As military mom said, its going to happen in any case, and if its going to happen it is best to have it done with as little physical harm to the mother as possible.
This issue I find very interesting. Debby mentioned the picketers outside the abortion clinic protesting. This of course is their right. However it has the reverse effect, people will naturally rebel against anything forced on them. Still, most people view abortion as the last resort. I don't believe abortion will ever become a form of birth control. I don't see that many women being able to do it more than once. There will be those that are able to have more than one abortion and cope with it but that won't happen on a widespread scale. Maternal instinct and the need to procreate is part of our genes.

[TWTCommish]

I'll have to disagree...

We cannot keep something legal simply because "people will do it anyway" - using that logic, we could run into a lot of trouble. I'm sure I don't need to explain why.

People may rebel against things forced against them, but making abortion illegal will cut down on it, that's for sure. We're talking about young women here who are scared already even with it legal - I find it hard to believe that the numbers would not drop if it were made illegal.

That being said, I dearly hope it is made illegal. Well over 30 million people have been killed in the USA through abortion...I sometimes wonder how different this world would be with all those people walking around.

The only thing you need to ask yourself is this: is it killing a human being? If it is, it should be made illegal, no questions asked. That's what matters.

[Debby]

One last thought from me on this issue.......had it been illegal at the time, I would not have sought out some back alley illegal abortion, I was scared enough to do it legally. I would have had to face up to my parents, and it would have been hard!!! But....I would now have a 15 year old child, and not be living with this guilt. Just a thought.

[Military Mom]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, allow me to go back to what I have said in my earlier post.

Making Abortions illegal may stop a few women like Debbie from taking that step. But legal or illegal, it will still happen anyway. I believe that those women who have chosen to abort at least deserve to have the proceedure performed in a clean safe setting with as much psychological support available.

Abortion, for most women is not an easy choice. For those women who would abort indiscriminatey, they do not deserve to be parents. If you believe in the existance of the soul, then let those innocent little souls go back and try again with a parent who can love them.

How can a woman who has been raped, unless she is a rare and unusually strong person sanely take care of the result of a violent, sick act against her? That baby is one half her and one half the subhuman knuckle-dragger that raped her. I cringe when I hear a man saying that she should not have the right to terminate that resulting pregnancy. It is an easy, self-righteous judgement to make about something that will never happen to you.

It is so human of us to be certain that we will know exactly how we will react to every curve ball life throws us. In other words, I'm sure that ninety five percent of the women who find themselves pushing their way thru a crowd of over-zealous protesters to get to the abortion clinic is in the midst of making a decision she never in a million year thought she would have to or could possibly make. Abortion is such a 'not me' thing. But in truth, it could be you - or your wife or your sister or your best friend or mother. It's difficult to gauge one's capacity to deal with pain until she is actually experiencing that pain. (Kinda like childbirth! You THOUGHT you were going natural, but...) That's why I say - walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

Yes, no matter what it is a devastating act to have done to your body and the life growing inside you. I could not personally work in an abortion clinic to see it done day in and day out. I don't think babies are throw-aways. I consider the moment when the sperm cell penetrates the ovum to be the beginning of life. All life is precious. If a woman does not feel that she could hold that life and treat it as the precious beautiful thing that it is, that is a terrifying revelation. But she deserves a fair chance at the rest of her life, not to die of sepsis or exsanguination on her cold bathroom floor.

mm

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by Military Mom

Making Abortions illegal may stop a few women like Debbie from taking that step. But legal or illegal, it will still happen anyway. I believe that those women who have chosen to abort at least deserve to have the proceedure performed in a clean safe setting with as much psychological support available.


Like I said: just because something will happen anyway does not mean it should be legalized. Yes, it would prevent "dirty" abortions - but the same can be said for prostituion and suicide - should those both be legalized and medically aided?

Heck, why not make everything legal? Crime would be eliminated! Saying that it will happen anyway, and that some of it will go "underground", is not a viable argument in favor of legalizing it. With that logic, there would be no viable point at which to stop.

Here's all that matters: is it murder, or not? Is the child alive, or not?

Keep in mind for every one of these sins that is legalized, people like me who disagree with them strongly will have to pay for them. Money is not the central issue, but that is another problem.

Originally posted by Military Mom

Abortion, for most women is not an easy choice. For those women who would abort indiscriminatey, they do not deserve to be parents. If you believe in the existance of the soul, then let those innocent little souls go back and try again with a parent who can love them.


Abortion is not an easy choice because most women know there is something wrong with it when they do it.

I believe in the existence of a soul that has one life - it goes to the afterlife afterwards. I do not believe in multiple lives. I do, however, believe that we are given our life and should be allowed to live it.


Originally posted by Military Mom

How can a woman who has been raped, unless she is a rare and unusually strong person sanely take care of the result of a violent, sick act against her? That baby is one half her and one half the subhuman knuckle-dragger that raped her. I cringe when I hear a man saying that she should not have the right to terminate that resulting pregnancy. It is an easy, self-righteous judgement to make about something that will never happen to you.


Not to be rude, but it's also easy to take one thing someone says and stretch those words into claims the person did not make.

Did I say there were no exceptions? I'm divided on the issue of rape - I would hope that the women would give birth to the child and either raise it, or put it up for adoption, but for me the jury is out on that question.

On one hand, an injustice was committed against her...on another hand, I'm fully convinced that child is alive, and a human, and that terminating it's life is murder. So, what's worse? A woman having to go through the consequences of labor even though she likely did nothing to deserve it, or kill a child?


Originally posted by Military Mom

It is so human of us to be certain that we will know exactly how we will react to every curve ball life throws us. In other words, I'm sure that ninety five percent of the women who find themselves pushing their way thru a crowd of over-zealous protesters to get to the abortion clinic is in the midst of making a decision she never in a million year thought she would have to or could possibly make. Abortion is such a 'not me' thing. But in truth, it could be you - or your wife or your sister or your best friend or mother. It's difficult to gauge one's capacity to deal with pain until she is actually experiencing that pain. (Kinda like childbirth! You THOUGHT you were going natural, but...) That's why I say - walk a mile in someone else's shoes.


Of course I havn't gone through it - and I don't know anyone directly who has. Over-zealous protesters? Keep in mind they and myself believe that it is murder - wouldn't you be downright outraged if over 30 million children had been murdered LEGALLY because (mostly) millions of women couldn't control their hormones?

If my sister got drunk and pregnant, and got an abortion, I would be very upset. Would I love her? Of course, God forgives, so who am I to hold such a grudge? However, I would expect her to repent, and I would also be saddended, and partially angry, when thinking of the incident.


Originally posted by Military Mom

Yes, no matter what it is a devastating act to have done to your body and the life growing inside you. I could not personally work in an abortion clinic to see it done day in and day out. I don't think babies are throw-aways. I consider the moment when the sperm cell penetrates the ovum to be the beginning of life. All life is precious. If a woman does not feel that she could hold that life and treat it as the precious beautiful thing that it is, that is a terrifying revelation. But she deserves a fair chance at the rest of her life, not to die of sepsis or exsanguination on her cold bathroom floor.


"She deserves a fair chance at the rest of her life..." What about the child?! The child's life comes first. I would sacrifice my life for my younger siblings...

Not only that, but the child is basically 100% innocent before birth, and the mother almost always let herself become pregnant through a lack of control or responsibility. Even when it was an honest mistake (say, a condem breaking), it is still her responsibility, whereas the baby can't help a thing - it's there, not by it's own will, but it deserves all the chance at life that the women does.

That said, I'm extremely surprised that you actually believe that life begins at conception, yet you can support abortion. I'm sure it's hard to a woman, but that cannot overshadow the life of a child. In my opinion, abortion is usually a selfish act (don't get me wrong, not always) that deprives innocent life of a simple chance to live.

In addition, assuming there were no moral problems with abortion, I would also like to say that I have a problem with women making the decision alone. Are they harboring the child? Yes, but the man is part of the equation - he is part of the child and needs to have a say. Both party's should take responsibility...obviously run-away fathers do not deserve what I mentioned.

[jamesglewisf]

:) Everybody stay cool here. The debate's been pretty nice so far, but don't let it get out of control. :)

[necrominator]

Not only that, but the child is basically 100% innocent before birth, and the mother almost always let herself become pregnant through a lack of control or responsibility. Even when it was an honest mistake (say, a condem breaking), it is still her responsibility, whereas the baby can't help a thing - it's there, not by it's own will, but it deserves all the chance at life that the women does.



what about original sin? But thats not the point, other poeple consider life starts from when the organism can think, thats what makes it human, and i think that they are entitled to their opinions, and that we shouldnt take away a womans rite to choose.

[utah007]

If it is made illegal, one side forces its ideas on the other. If it remains as pro choice its up to the individual to decide. Personally I've always believed in having the freedom to make my own choices... Didn't God give us free will? Of course God also said don't commit murder, but then we get into the semantics debate of where life begins again... The most fair and openminded way to handle it is to keep the status quo.
You see even though most people would never have an abortion, they still want that freedom to choose. Its like flag burning, I hate it, but I would fight tooth and nail against anyone trying to outlaw it.
Same goes for prostitution, I don't see the point in outlawing it. To me it could be government controlled and regulated (not to mention taxed heavily). It would also cut down on health care costs and STD's by ensuring that the prostitutes were clean from disease.
And again, you would see that the majority of people would choose NOT to pay for sex.
IMHO as always...

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by utah007
If it is made illegal, one side forces its ideas on the other. If it remains as pro choice its up to the individual to decide. Personally I've always believed in having the freedom to make my own choices... Didn't God give us free will? Of course God also said don't commit murder, but then we get into the semantics debate of where life begins again... The most fair and openminded way to handle it is to keep the status quo.


Well, I think I know when life begins - I at least know the earliest point at which it could. Whereas it looks like you're not quite sure when it begins - so why are you willing to risk it?

Status quo does not matter - that is irrelevant. All that matters is whether or not we are killing children legally, and I'm totally convinced we are.


Originally posted by utah007

You see even though most people would never have an abortion, they still want that freedom to choose. Its like flag burning, I hate it, but I would fight tooth and nail against anyone trying to outlaw it.
Same goes for prostitution, I don't see the point in outlawing it. To me it could be government controlled and regulated (not to mention taxed heavily). It would also cut down on health care costs and STD's by ensuring that the prostitutes were clean from disease.


Before we move on, you need to tell me when life begins. I'm sorry, but if you don't know, then I don't think you're in a viable position to tell me it should be legal. If you're not sure, then we certainly should not risk it.

Don't have sex if you're not ready for a child...

Why should the consequences be suffered by the child? How about the people involved in making the baby take responsibility for it?

By the way, making this legal murder ILLEGAL is not "forcing" ideas on anyone. You could say that about all laws, but you don't, because you agree with those. For all we know, rapists think they should be allowed to rape people and that having it against the law is us forcing our ideas on them - see what I mean?

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by necrominator
what about original sin? But thats not the point, other poeple consider life starts from when the organism can think, thats what makes it human, and i think that they are entitled to their opinions, and that we shouldnt take away a womans rite to choose.

Yes, that's why I said "basically" innocent - the child is more innocent than the woman or man, by far!

Alright necro...you think it's alive when it can think? When is that? How can we get inside it's head to know? What about if it's moving but the brain is partially formed?

Woman's right to choose? That makes me so mad...the woman has a choice: HAVE SEX, OR NOT. They don't *NEED* to have sex, people can wait until they're married, or ready for a child, or whatever. Doing otherwise is un-responsible.

Forget opinions for a second, and tell me when life begins for SURE. If you don't know, we can't risk it. If it does begin at conception like I've been saying, then we're murdering babies legally, and nothing else matters.

[Debby]

Okay, I thought I was done commenting, but after reading these posts, I do have to make a few more comments....first of all, TWT, I agree with alot of what you say, but not all...as having been there, I think that Military Mom is right in saying that until we are actually in that circumstance, we can't actually say what we would or wouldn't do. As she said, we need to walk a mile in someone's shoes before we can judge. Don't get me wrong...I am not saying it should be legal, and I DO regret what I did, but...as for you saying the womans right to choose angers you because she has the right to choose, whether or not to have sex in the first place...you have to see the other side of it. Yes. i had the right to decide whether or not I should have sex. Let's see...I was 19, no sexual experience, and thought this man loved me. Yes...I was naive. As are many young women who end up pregnant. It of course was never my intention to get pregnant, I was so naive that I beleived him when he said that would be impossible. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I also think maybe you are a little harsh towards a woman who has made that choice. Yes, I regret it...I wish I could go back in time and stop myself...stop myself from ever getting involved with that man in the first place!!! Antop myself from making not only the choice to have an abortion, but aklso to stop myself from having sex in the first place.But, obviously I can't do that...and I feel for the poor girls who are now in the position I was in, and Military Mom does have a good point about many of them having it done in dangerous ways if it were made illegal.That would happen, then not only the life of the child, but that of the mothers could end. But yet, as you said, many people, myself included, would not have had the abortion had it been illegal, but I think that you need to consider the lonely scared females point of view just a little more...not because her point of view at the time is right, it isn't, but because she is not some heartless murderer. Just a scared kid.

[TWTCommish]

I totally understand.

Yes, a lot of people make the wrong choice. My point is that even if it's an honest mistake, they need to face the music and have the child.

If you cannot raise it, give it up for adoption. I am saddened by the fact that babies are killed by parents who do not want them, when we have numerous couples who cannot have a child of their own and would dearly love to raise one.

Yes, the woman is usually young, naive, foolish at times, and made a bad choice, as we all do sometimes. However, as a result, she needs to accept the consequences.

I also do not think that being angered over the murder of a child, no matter what regrets come afterwards, is being too harsh. I do not, for example, feel angry towards you. It is not my job to hold a grudge. But I stand by my statements here.

The bottom line is that the child is alive, and as such we must imagine it as a fully born child. If we did, these arguments would be settled much more quickly.

[Debby]

well, you may be angry over the murder of a child, that is not what I was saying was being to harsh. I just think that there is way more to it then you will ever realize. Bottom line...it is wrong. But you must understand that at the time i felt it was my only way out...and in my tiny (still a child) mind at 19, it was what seemed the only option. You can be angry at the men who performed the abortion, but please don't be angry at the women who have had them. I can still remember how terrified I was...how sick, how scared and nowhere to turn!!! I am a christian now, but I still understand why at the time I did it..and that is where I was saying you were being harsh...not at the murder of the child, but at the woman herself.

[TWTCommish]

I'm not angry at her directly if the woman regrets her actions and admits the mistake - I'm angry that it happened, that people fought to make it legal, that doctors took jobs to do it, and that others supported it. I'm not angry at you, more at the act in and of itself.

And of course, there are times where the woman is not scared, and gives the whole thing little thought...in those cases I am definitely angry.

[Debby]

Okay, I would have to say I agree with you totally on what you just said.

[TWTCommish]

I'm glad - I love to debate, but don't love conflict in and of itself.

Anyway, back to the election coverage! :)

[In_His_Shadow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TWTCommish
[B]The bottom line is that the child is alive, and as such we must imagine it as a fully born child. If we did, these arguments would be settled much more quickly.
____________________________________________________________

I personally don't think this would matter at all. If that was the case we wouldn't be dealing with partial birth abortions. I have a letter from a nurse in Texas that worked for a doctor who performed these abortions. Now to qualify for this type of abortion there has to be several factors present. But, unfortunately she says that if the mother states she can't afford the baby they consider that jeopordizing the mothers life. It's a loop hole thing. I would print it but, out of respect to everyone I will not. It is very graphic as she describes the abortion procedure. I can only say that anything that you have to work that hard to kill had to be alive.

Debby,

Sweetie I wish I could jump through my screen and give you a great big hug. As a christian darling, you can let go of that guilt. God loves you and when he looks down at you he doesn't see that little girl, he see the new washed in blood Debby who is sinless, he's not holding on to that, he has let it go and that young girl in you can let it go. Your heart is so tender towards these young girls. Have you ever thought about sharing your story with them? Or maybe volunteering with counseling these girls after the fact or maybe even before the fact. You've obviously have so much love to give. Pray about it I bet the Lord would open up a door for you where in your reaching out to help others that are hurting, maybe that is where you will receive your healing.

Hugs,

CJ

[Debby]

That is a very good idea, but the only problem with it is that I live 70 miles from the nearest place that would have abortion counseling. Otherwise I would love to volunteer, and help other young girls who are now in the position I was in, and let them know they are not alone,and help them to make the RIGHT decision!! :)

[Karenluvs6]

I have been avoiding this thread....such a controversial issue takes more than five minutes to think about....but I will share my $.2 anyway:

I'm pro-choice.
I think it should be an option for certain instances...
And certain situations call for it.
Suppose a girl/woman is raped, what does she do if she gets pregnant by a rapist?
I would not want to keep that baby!
That would be a very sad situation indeed, but one that doesn't take a whole lot of decision making--most ppl wouldn't want to carry and keep a baby from a strange man, by whom she has been raped.
Of course, I do see the other side also....I mean this new abortion pill for instance, it is going to cause a whole lot of problems....I said that the very day that it was released!
I think it is going to be an excuse for every promiscuous teenage girl or boy, to say, "it doesn't matter, if it happens we'll get it taken care of...." That would be very sad.
I certainly see both sides of this, but I am, for good reasons, pro-choice....I have never had an abortion, and if you want to know, I would never do that myself! I just think the option should be there if it is needed. Just not taken advantage of, or used just because you have decided you no longer want a baby.....That is sick!!

As far as counseling teens on this subject....How about counseling teens on the importance of abstinance?? <--spell check!
Teens shouldn't be having sex in the first place....of course I realize that it is going to happen anyway...this is human nature...it is life...but that doesn't make it right.
If you teach kids' that the option is there...they will just have more sex...knowing that things can be fixed if they mess up....or more bluntly...they can get rid of a baby when they get pregnant.
In situations like this....it is just not right!!

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by Karenluvs6
I have been avoiding this thread....such a controversial issue takes more than five minutes to think about....but I will share my $.2 anyway:


That's 20 cents actually. :) Although judging by your long post I suppose that's appropriate. :D


Originally posted by Karenluvs6
Suppose a girl/woman is raped, what does she do if she gets pregnant by a rapist?
I would not want to keep that baby!


For me, the jury is still out on that issue. I don't think I would condemn or harbor hard feelings against a woman who aborted such a baby, however my mother knows a person who was raped, had the child, and gave it up for adoption, and she's very glad she did. I would hope the woman would want to do the same.


Originally posted by Karenluvs6

I certainly see both sides of this, but I am, for good reasons, pro-choice....I have never had an abortion, and if you want to know, I would never do that myself! I just think the option should be there if it is needed. Just not taken advantage of, or used just because you have decided you no longer want a baby.....That is sick!!


Yes, it certainly is. Here's what you really need to ask yourself: are the majority of abortions murder? I'm convinced they are, and if they are, than obviously it has to become our top priority to get it banned.


Originally posted by Karenluvs6

As far as counseling teens on this subject....How about counseling teens on the importance of abstinance?? <--spell check!
Teens shouldn't be having sex in the first place....of course I realize that it is going to happen anyway...this is human nature...it is life...but that doesn't make it right.
If you teach kids' that the option is there...they will just have more sex...knowing that things can be fixed if they mess up....or more bluntly...they can get rid of a baby when they get pregnant.
In situations like this....it is just not right!!


That's what you get when they start handing out condoms in school. "Oh, you're gonna do it anyway - so here, have this. And try it out on a banana while you're at it. And how about some help from your male teacher?" - it's insane. If you ask me, it's a bit healthy to be nervous and mildly frightened by sex - most people are the first time I would imagine. Fear is what keeps people out of trouble.

[Karenluvs6]

I don't need to quote any parts of your posts, because you are exactly, 100% right about everything you have said.
I realize you don't agree with me on all of it, but I appreciate your honesty without condemnation!
thanks for taking the time to point out those things to me.

[TWTCommish]

No problem - but my, how boring a board where so many of the people posting agree with each other on most of the controversial issues out there. <sigh> :D

I like those angels, by the way...

[Military Mom]

TWT,

I too love a good debate. I don't take what is said here personally, I don't get angry either. I just happen to be opinionated and I have a lot to say. :)

This particular subject is a debate that can never be won. It is an important one too. What it comes down to for me is this. Abortion is choice that a woman - any woman may one day consider making. It has been and can be done relatively quickly and discreetly since homo sapiens have evolved into being. It is a very personal choice, and a painful one at that. We have the technology to prevent a double tragedy from occurring from a botched procedure; it is nothing short of cruel to withold it. You deal with reality to prevent what is already terrible from becoming horriffic.

For the most part, I think abortion is wrong. There are those cases that reside within a grey area when I feel it could be justified. Making them illegal will not solve anything - it will just make a bad situation much much worse. The abortions will continue without the aid of regulatory organizations to ensure the ethics and quality of care being put forth.

mm

[TWTCommish]

Well, I havn't taken any official stance on what to do if the mother's life is in danger, or rape is involved.

When I refer to making abortion illegal, I'm referring to simply "inconvienent" children where the responsibility falls soley on the parent(s) and they/her/him don't want to deal with it. That is unacceptable, unresponsible, and has accounted for the death of well over 30 million babies that never even got a chance to live.

[Military Mom]

TWT,

I am willing to bet that the numbers are higher than that. Not everybody has someone to tell.... {blues}

mm

[TWTCommish]

Good point - the number of 30 million actually comes from Rush Limbaugh's book (not sure which), which was written early in the 90s - I just stick around it to be totally sure it can't be any less. The real number could easily be 50 million in the US alone.

[4everHis]

Good thread. Please don't take my statements below harshly. I am just stating my view and the facts as I see them. No offense intended to anyone.

Is it a choice? There is the big question.
Yes, it is a choice; and so is lying, stealing, adultery, murder, etc. God granted us the ability to make choices, but in every one of the cases I mention above there is only one choice that is right. There is a very clear distinction between right and wrong and we cannot blur than line.

Doctors on both sides of this issue agree that the baby is alive. It is wrong to take a life. So what makes it right to take a life in certain circumstances? Ok -- Rape? Does the killing of the baby correct the original crime of rape? God grants life. If He granted the life of a human being, even in the process of a dreadful crime, He has His purpose, and it is not up to us to thwart His purpose.

I too, know ladies who have been raped and did the hard thing and went full term to deliver a beautiful baby. Some have kept them and loved them; some gave them for adoption. Yes, it was hard for the mother to think about what happened that dreadful day, but God brought something beautiful out of something evil. The Bible says, "we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, and are called according to His purpose", Romans 8:28. I also like the verse a little earlier in that passage that say, "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us", Romans 8:18.

You see, yet while the rape may be a tremendous suffering, God can bring something glorious out of it. Isn't it better to allow God to turn the horrendous act of rape into something beautiful and glorious than to go through life with nothing but the pane of the act and then the guilt of the abortion on top of it?

Yes, God does give us a choice; otherwise, love would be meaningless. Choose to love the child; he or she did nothing to deserve death.

If you have had an abortion already, thank God for His Grace and Mercy! We all have sinned and fall short of His glory, so you are not alone. He is forgiving!

Sorry for preaching. I thought a long time before responding to this issue, and this was what was on my heart.

[Karenluvs6]

I totally understand what you are saying 4everhis...but I would think that keeping a child, which was conceived in such a way, would just be a constant reminder of the traumatic event, that most ppl would just wish to forget. Of course most ppl could never forget something like that, but wouldn't it just be harder to do that if you keep the baby?
I am, in no way, shape or form, condemning or coming down on any woman who chooses to keep a child conceived from a rape....Matter of fact, those women must be the strongest women alive! But I do not understand how they can look at the child without constantly being reminded of how they came about.
I couldn't do it......there's just no way.

[Karenluvs6]

I was thinking about something else also.
Now mind you, I've never had...nor would I ever have an abortion!! I could never do that!!! I had six unplanned pregnancies, and carried and had all of them. All by the same man, in case you're wondering.
But, what if a woman just found out she was pregnant...ok?
she goes to the doctor immediatly...she is about three weeks along...they do all the tests, and the doctor tells her that the child has serious complications, and the chances that the child will live are about a zillion to one...and if the child does, by chance live, he/she will have tremendous brain damage, will never walk, talk, hear, see, etc...
Is a woman expected to wait it out?
Does she go home, take her vitamins, do her exercises and just sit there and hope?

[TWTCommish]

You never know what you can and cannot do for sure until it happens. I've heard that women are a bit afraid of the pain of pregnancy, but once they feel the child inside them, it doesn't bother them as much. I think it's, in most cases, a beautiful way to turn a tragedy into a blessing.

[Karenluvs6]

yes, a beautiful way indeed.....but I don't think what I said has anything to do with being afraid of the pain of pregnancy.
When making a decision like this, women don't think about the pain of a pregnancy....they consider the outcome of the pregnancy.

[TWTCommish]

I see - my mistake. I'm a big believer in passing on genes: meaning I truly believe a child, most of the time, will be like his or her parents. I see it in almost everyone I know - I find it fascinating. And of course, that leads to the obvious question: will the child take on some of the characteristics of the thug who "helped" conceive him or her?

[Karenluvs6]

not only that...but one day that child will want to know who his/her father is....what do you tell your child?
How do you explain that thier father is/was a rapist?
That could screw a child up for the rest of thier life....not to mention, it would completely devastate them.

[4everHis]

Karenluvs6,

My Aunt Gail is mentally retarded because she was born very late in my Grandmother's years (very unexpectedly). The Doctors tried to talk them into aborting. My grandparents endured a lot of pain over the years as a result of their decision, but I guarantee you, if you ask them or any of us who have been blessed by Gail for the last 38 years, all of us would say that, while she caused problems at times, and was hard to deal with, and took a ton of time, we all are so greatful for her life. She may not have the greatest life, but to her it is the only one she has. So is it better for one not to have a chance to live at all, or to live a less than perfect life? Also keep in mind, our bodies are wonderfully and fearfully made. Most pregnancies that have major problems such as you mentioned, end in a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage). That is one of the many miracles of a women's body; it 'knows' that there is a problem and ends it. But the difference is that, in that case, it was God's choice, not the mother's.

On the other point, if you kept a child from a rape and had to tell them later what happened... yes, it would be hard -- VERY hard to tell them. It will probably even be painful for the child, but you can explain to them that you knew God had a special plan for this little person and that's why you chose to keep the baby. Do you not think the child would be greatful? ...and know that you loved them - unconditionally! Think about it, if one is willing to abort, then love is very conditional - even to their own flesh and blood.

[Karenluvs6]

yes, I'm sure the child would be very grateful that she was chosen...I see your point.
I believe everyone will view this differently...of course!
I do not think any child who can't see, hear, walk, talk or comprehend any type of learning...would be grateful that they were brought into this world..it would be a life full of pain and suffering...no one should have to endure that if it isn't necessary.

It is funny how someone me can have all these strong opinions, and at the same time...say I would never have an abortion myself.
And this I know for a fact! I would never...no, I 'could' never do that...ever...but sometimes, in some situations, for some ppl...it just seems like it may be necessary.
Maybe not necessary, but so totally understandable....Some ppl just can't handle things like that.

[In_His_Shadow]

Karen wrote: some ppl just can't handle things like that.

But just maybe this was how they were going to learn to handle things.

I go to local nursing homes and visit with several men and women who are in a vegetative state. I don't know what they think about or comprehend. Maybe their world is a heaven, we have no clue. Maybe God in his mercy allows them heaven on earth in their mind. I do know the joy they bring to me, their families and the staff. I have learned so many life lessons of patience, mercy, tenderness, love and so many more from these wonderful people.

Like I said in an earlier post having a family member who is the result of a rape (he was adopted into our family) and another from a teenage mother then having the privledge of spending time with the disabled and handicap I haven't once met one that would have been better off not living.

Cathie

[blinc]

I think I understand what Karen is talking about. In life, I've met some people who were so emotionally fragile that it seemed one more thing would send them over the edge. For some women, after being raped, I do believe that to carry a pregnancy to its full term could cause irreperable mental/emotional damage. To me it would seem a torture to force these women to remain pregnant.

I do fully agree that abortion should not be a means of birth control... to me, that seems a horrendous choice. Unfortunately, some women do use abortion as an "oops" option.

Guess we all have our views and ideas of what is right or wrong. It all comes down to a persons individual choice. Respecting each others opinions is such a great way for us to hear other ideas, without feeling our own ideas are being attacked. You all do such a wonderful job of stating your views in a well thought out, courteous manner. It's a pleasure to read the different ideas.

[Karenluvs6]

Maybe their world is a heaven, we have no clue. Maybe God in his mercy allows them heaven on earth in their mind. I do know the joy they bring to me, their families and the staff. I have learned so many life lessons of patience, mercy, tenderness, love and so many more from these wonderful people.
quoted from post by In_His_Shadow




this is such a beautiful thought!
That is a wonderful way to put it IHS....makes me think, that's for sure.
Thank you for sharing that.

[In_His_Shadow]

Thanks Karen, I stuggled with even writing that. I hate getting involved with these kind of discussions. I don't know that I have ever seen one that someone has changed their mind after reading them. Maybe they do and I just haven't seen it. I am just thankful that you were not offended.

CJ

[TWTCommish]

A friend of mine once changed his mind months later after mulling it all over - I was only what got him thinking, but it all helps. I consider it my duty. You never know what might happen.

[4everHis]

Can someone change their mind? Believe it or not, I used to be pro choice for the very same rewasons I hear being said on this thread. As you can see, that way of thinking has changed for me.

[In_His_Shadow]

Jeff and Chris,

I totally agree with you. The Holy Spirit can turn any heart. This thread as well as all of them in on this site are staying peaceful and informative. But I have seen others on different groups where there was yelling, bickering etc. and you would be hard pressed to picked the Christian out of the bunch.

As you can probably tell by my past post on this subject I also have very strong beliefs on this topic. But even if I removed God from the equation I still would have the same strong opinions.

Because of having family members that are adopted I am a fanatic on this subject. I can't imagine a day without them in my life. When I was in college I was raped on spring break. I was blessed that a pregnancy didn't occur, but had it I have no doubt in my heart that I would have kept that baby. Even though that child would have some genes of the father it is still my blood. There isn't a day goes by that something doesn't remind me of that day. I can't imagine if I had to deal with that coupled with dealing with an abortion.

Anyway, I am going to exit this discussion now. It has nothing to do with anything said, I just get very uncomfortable with confrontation. So continue on and I will continue reading.

Thanks,
CJ

[TWTCommish]

I'm sorry to hear it CJ. A friend of mine said that some studies showed that 75% of the women in college are raped, or mildly so at some point - I honestly don't believe that, but do believe it's a bit higher than we realize, simply because we have lesser forms of it, IE: date rape, things like that.

[4everHis]

CJ, thanks for your transparency! I know it has to be hard to talk about, but perhaps someone will benefit from you opening up from the heart. Thanks!

[In_His_Shadow]

I can't even begin to tell you how hard. I can't even believe I did it. I guess all the talk about abortions and rape stirred up all up again. I think because I am sitting at home and in my little room alone makes me be able to think that no one is really reading this. Outside of family I have never shared it with anyone.

I have no doubt that it's not happen chance. I'm willing to bet it's just time to work on something else I've stuffed down for along time. So all in all it's a good thing. He will walk me through this also.

Thanks guys,

CJ

Dag nab it, I said I wasn't going to post again here. Sorry guys, I really am a women of my word most of the time.

[Debby]

This really doesn't have anything to do with the abortion issue, but I have to make a comment on what you said, In_His_Shadow. When you spoke about the elderly people in the nursing home, with their minds gone, and maybe they were experiencing heaven on earth, because of gods mercy...(I dont know how to quote or else I would) anyway...that was the most beautiful thing I ever heard, and it reallly hit home for me...I just wanted to say Thanks. When I was 19, my mother suffered little strokes, she started acting strange, but we didn't know what was going on. Then when I was 21, it really hit her bad...more strokes...and her mind went. For 10 years I watched that women go downhill to the point of being like a 2 year old child. (if that) At the end, she just sat and stared into space....she didnt speak, for the last 5 years of her illness she didnt even speak...she would make this high pitched squeal, when she was excited, like when i came to the nursing home to see her. But she really wasn't there. Not the mom I knew. She had been such a good christian women, and dad prayed for her faithfully to be healed, but for some reason, God chose not to. And I don't blame God...he always has his reasons. Mom died 3 years ago, and what you said, the heaven on earth thing....I truley beleive thats what god allowed for my mother, before he took her home. Sorry I got off track here.

[In_His_Shadow]

Debby,

I only know that we will not in this life know everything. But, I do have the assurance of God's mercy and grace as witnessed in my life daily. I wish I knew the words to say to comfort you during this upcoming holiday season. I will pray that God would send his comforting angels to wrap their arms around you and fill you with his love. I know that if anyway possible your mother is sending you love and kisses and is very proud of the woman you are.

You are a blessing to me,

CJ

[Karenluvs6]

Debby,
Your post has touched my heart in a way in which I cannot even describe with words...I have a warm space in my heart, where I hold you close and will keep you there until you get through this very difficult time...As CJ said, in not so many words, this time of year is so hard when you are without a loved one....just know that you have a family right here in the forum, where you can come for comfort and kind words, always. We love you Debby.
My grandmother went through the very same thing Deb, so I know exactly how hard this is for you. She had a stroke when she was twenty six years old. She couldn't even take care of her children. It was very sad. She lost the ability to speak and she couldn't walk right or remember things. Not even the names of her kids'. The only name she ever remembered was the name of the dog she had when she was younger.
She passed away last year, right after Thanksgiving...I had gone to her house on Thanksgiving day last year, and got a picture taken of her, my children and myself.
I will treasure that photo for the rest of my life.

Please know that you are loved and that I will be thinking about you and praying for you always.
karenluvs6

[Debby]

CJ and Karen, what you both said made me cry...it was so sweet and I am so lucky to have found such good people and new friends in this forum.....maybe God brought me here...I know the holidays will be hard with both mom and dad gone now...for the first time ever. It was hard when mom went, but yet, I was prepared, because she had been ill so long, but dad's death last August just caught us all off gaurd. Anyway, thanks so much for your comforting words, and I'm sorry I got off the subject in this thread, but yet I'm not sorry...I needed to hear what you said, and I do feel like i have family here. Thank you. :)