Why does God allow...

[Debby]

Mods...I don't think this belongs here, but couldn't find the right forum for religious posts...so if you want to move it, that is okay with me. :)
A lot of people wonder that if God exists, why he would allow some tragedy like 9-11 to happen. Thus, because bad things happen, they don't believe in God. I copied this post from another forum, and told her I did, because I thought her thoughts on this were so good.....

But God's purpose isn't to solve our problems and make life free of suffering. Problems arise from the actions of others, and everyone has their free agency to choose good or evil. Preventing evil from happening would deny free agency to those who choose evil.

The purpose of life is to choose for ourselves whether or not to be Christ-like. This is a process, not an event, and requires a mortal life away from our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. It also requires free agency, which often results in mistakes. If we choose to follow the commandments to the best of our ability, the sacrifice of Christ will allow us to be cleansed of our sins and return to life with Him and God.

Our job is to solve problems, endure suffering, and choose what we will make of ourselves. If God stepped in to stop problems from happening or to grant our vision for the world then we would learn nothing. To grow and progress we need opposition and difficulties to overcome.

This mortal life is a test, therefore it must be difficult and confusing at times. To make it free of suffering it would also be free of choice, which would make it pointless as we would be unable to progress.

[DataJack]

i am so sick of these so called enlightened christians saying this dirt!! god did not put us here on earth to live like this. where in the bible does it say he created man to die to go back to heaven with him?he created man to live here on the earth...no where does it say he created adam to live then die. adam was kicked out of the garden of eden along with eve so they would not eat of the tree of eternal life. they already had tasted the fruits from the tree of knowledge and so knew the difference between good and evil. thus all of humanity was born into sin and needed a saviour who was the christ, gods son.i repeat...gods son for even jesus says the father is greater than i. so now to your question of why god allows this dirt to go on? he allows it so he can prove to both humanity and ALL OF CREATION that ALL OF CREATION needs to come under his theocratic rule.that way when some part of creation starts to deveate from his master plan then the results of this folly can be shown. thats why there is going to be a resurection of both the good and the bad to a judgement.and if we die and go to heaven, purgatory or hell...whats the sense of a resurection?....for too long the christian relegion has led people away from the truth of the bible...pick it up and read it and you shall see my words are like a fresh stream in a dessert for they are true.

[OnceByten]

Good points both of you. However Jack, there is no need to insult Debby by calling her names and belittling her OPINION.

This is a debate forum yes, but there is no need to be rude and call names.

Please stick to the topic and respect other peoples opinions.

[jamesglewisf]

For too long people have posted long, rambling, stream-of-consciousness posts that are too hard to follow. I've read your post 3 times, and I give up.

[jamesglewisf]

Debby, back to your point.

Sometimes God causes "bad" things to happen. Why was the man born blind? Most people would say this was a "bad" thing. He was born blind so that when Jesus restored his sight, it would bring glory to God.

Sometimes "bad" things happen because God is chastening, rebuking, or scourging us. In other words, he is punishing evil or correcting bad behavior. Why did God wipe out Soddom and Gommorah? Because of their wickedness.

Paul had a thorn in his side that God refused to remove because God said his grace was sufficient.

I heard an example once. If I decide to punch someone, how would God prevent that bad thing from happening? I'm not saying he couldn't; but if He did, would I still have the ability to make choices? Imagine a world where God prevented every bad thing from happening. We would all be robots. Would you like to live in a world where God prevented all evil or all poor choices or all bad circumstances? You're at the store, and you reach for the ice cream, but can't pick it up. You decide to go to Starbucks, but you can't walk in the door because God knows you'll need the $3 for your gas bill. You call to accept the job offer at IBM, but God redirects the call to the job offer at Dell. Your toddler is walking and starts to trip, but never hits the floor. Does anyone really want to live in a world where no "bad" things happen?

Good topic, Debster!

[Grimey]

Wiggles, did you totally miss the fact that DataJack is claiming Jesus is not God? Or could you just not understand his post? He slams Debby and acts like he is enlightened, but in reality, his statements are heretical.

[Grimey]

For the uninitiated, here is a quote from John MacArthur's, "The Gospel According to Jesus."

To say that Jesus is Lord is first of all to acknowledge that he is Almighty God, the Creator and Sustainer of all things (Colossians 1:16-17). This is a profound declaration of truth. There is little question that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. Only cultists and unbelievers dispute this truth. Scripture declares him to be God (John 1:1; cf. v. 14). God the Father addresses him as God (Hebrews 1:8). He displays the attributes of deity -- he is omnipresent (Matthew 18:20), omnipotent (Philippians 3:21), and unchanging (Hebrews 13:8). He forgives sins (Matthew 9:2-7), receives worship (Matthew 28:17), and has absolute authority over all things (v. 18). Christ encompasses the fullnes of God in human flesh (Colossians 2:9). He is one with the Father. In John 10:30 he said plainly, "I and the Father are one." Jesus' critics clearly understood he was claiming to be God on this (v. 33) and many other occasions (e.g., John 5:18; 8:58-59; Mark 14:61-64).
One of Jesus' biggest statments was "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). He took the name God revealed to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). Again, they picked up stones to stone him because they knew he was claiming to be God. He also said it in a series of declarations in John 6:51; 8:12; 9:5; 10:7; 10:11; 11:25; and 14:6).

[DataJack]

Good points both of you. However Jack, there is no need to insult Debby by calling her names and belittling her OPINION.

This is a debate forum yes, but there is no need to be rude and call names.

Please stick to the topic and respect other peoples opinions.

well...oncebyten...you are 100% right in saying what you did. i am sorry debbie...i did not mean to be cruel and i very much was. i will leave the post the way is is as it is a good humilty thing for me...i really am sorry...i come on VERY strong and it was not called for. however i stand by what i say...but not the way i said it...it was cruel and not the proper way for a lover of god to speak to another...again...i am sorry for being mean and cruel in that post

[OnceByten]

Jack, first off Welcome to "The Doo"!!

We all love a good debate, but when it infringes on the rights of others it is not really a debate, it's just insults and hurtful.

Don't worry about your "boo boo". We all have those days LOL!!

Good to have you here!

[Grimey]

DataJack implied in this thread http://frappydoo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3726 that the trinity was a point of contention in Luther's 95 theses. I'm not an expert on Luther, but I just read the 95 theses and didn't find anything about the trinity in them.

wow......i would LOVE to get into a CIVIL discussion with Grimey...can we start a discussion here somewhere?...oh......and it HAS to be backed with scripture...not just our words...also....the trinity was one of the things tha luther was in doubt about and nailed to the church door....maybe i will post a sermon...hmmm.....anyways.....lets chat

Here's a list of the 95 theses: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm

Luther said:
the word "Let Us make" is aimed at making sure the mystery of our faith, by which we believe that from eternity there is one God and that there are three separate Persons in one Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Jews indeed try in various ways to get around this passage, but they advance nothing sound against it . . . . In the fifth place, here both appear: "Let Us make" and "He made," in this plural and in the singular; thereby Moses clearly and forcibly shows us that within the very Godhead and the Creating Essence there is one inseparable and eternal plurality."
What Luther Says – An Anthology, ed. Ewald M. Plass, Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis: MO, ©1959.


Read about the Council of Nicea and how people try to twist it here: http://www.equip.org/free/DN206.htm
Summary
The Council of Nicea is often misrepresented by cults and other religious movements. The actual concern of the council was clearly and unambiguously the relationship between the Father and the Son. Is Christ a creature, or true God? The council said He was true God. Yet, the opponents of the deity of Christ did not simply give up after the council’s decision. In fact, they almost succeeded in overturning the Nicene affirmation of Christ’s deity. But faithful Christians like Athanasius continued to defend the truth, and in the end, truth triumphed over error.
Luther called the Council of Nicea "the most sacred of all councils."
Gordon Rupp, Luther’s Progress to the Diet of Worms (New York: Harper and Row Publishers, 1964), 66.

BTW, Scripture is the basis for believing that Jesus is God, not Luther. I was just answering whether or not Luther thought Jesus is God.

DataJack, just out of curiosity, what church/religion do you belong to? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

[pack momma]

God allows bad things to happen because.......Since mankinds fall from grace in the garden of Eden, God has taken a largely "hands off" approach to allow Saten to prove his point. That point being that man didn't need God to decide right and wrong for them. They could do it themselves. This is important because already miriads of angles were already in heaven watching. Does'nt the Bible say the angels in heaven applauded mankinds creation??? Anyway, if God would have just zapped Adam and Eve right then and there and started over... The angels could have begun wondering "hmmm maybe this guys right, God didn't even give them a chance, and what about us, we are a higher lifeform than them?" This is the
same reason God allowed Saten, this angel turned bad,to continue living. After all he sinned before Adam and Eve. And even though God took the "hands-off" approach, doesn't mean he has been sitting around watching us suffer and doing nothing. Right then and there he made up his mind how to "fix" it all. The very first prophecy was uttered in the sentencing there in the garden. To the snake (Saten) about the crushing in the head and the heel. The heel , Jesus being killed (a temporary setback for him, but necessary to redeem mankind. A perfect life (Jesus) for a perfect life (Adam) The crushing of the head (Saten) eventual total destruction.
But no matter, how we suffer, be assured nothing gets by God. Somewhere the scrip. says that he stores our tears in a bag at his side, and that he knows even when a sparrow falls.
When we understand the big picture it is easier to deal with.


Just for the record (smile) I believe what makes sense to me and what the Bible says, not tradition or any one secular religious group.

OMG< I just noticed, I've been promoted. I'm now a Fart Smeller, Hope y'all are "airing" icecreme

[DataJack]

DataJack, just out of curiosity, what church/religion do you belong to? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
I also beleive that everyone should sit back at least once a day and think about their belly button or some other trival thing just to cool down and relax. Does this make me a Buddast?...maybe i am trying to be a zen master?...my point is that in this day and age all faiths are becoming as one, yet only one true path leads to salvation. no i am not one of Jehovahs Witnesses though i will try to witness upon what i perceive that Jehovah has revealed to me. i maybe out of " bounds " in some of my veiws as far as people here are concerned and i sure as heck can go off the deep end at times, as my rant about debbies post goes to show. and i am sorry about the way i said things in that post, but my veiws remain the same.

[raybeck]

Jack, I'm wondering WHAT Bible you are reading from...

[Gourmetmisse]

you know Debby & DataJack, when I read your posts I didn't really see a disagreement, but what I thought I understood was you were not both entirely on the same topic. To me it seemed DataJack was a bit off topic at the least because Debby is putting out there a question that draws many people in to explore religion to begin with, and many of those people come to the Lord. "Why does God let bad things happen"? So many people start learning about God after something tragic happens in their life. Not everyone was born into a family that takes them to church or raises them to know God.
Bad things happen and it brings people closer together, and it brings people closer to God. I've seen it an small scale within my family, and we've all seen it large scale with the events like 9-11 and the tsunami.
Also, as far as all faiths merging to one, I think that is an interesting thought that I'd like to hear more about. Harold Kushner is a Jewish rabbi who wrote a book called "When Bad things Happen to Good People." That brought me in to study religion, but it didn't make me Jewish.


______________
misse

[Justawoman]

But sadly enough the opposite can be true too Gourmetmisse. Sometimes bad things can tear a family apart.

Bad things happen because of choices the individual made, some time in his life, and the blame seems to always be placed on God, their circumstances, their parents, they might blame society for not giving them help (in the case of Jessica Lunsford). When we all start taking personal responsibility for our actions and chose to live our lives in such a way that we do put our neighbor's well being over ours, then our society will start seeing a decline in crime and bad things happening. But we won't ever see that all across the board. People like living in sin. It feels good for the moment, until they get caught, then very seldom is it their fault.

We were watching the news last night and they talked to the man that the Pope saved from death row. I just went and tried to find his name. Google sent me everywhere but where I wanted to go. It happened when the Pope came to the US for that huge visit. Well anyway, Foxnews was talking to the man, still in prison, and I loved this one comment he made, " I am a christian. I became a christian 9 days after being put in prison."

So I will always believe that bad things will happen as long as folks like the feeling of sinning and living on the edge. When they caught is the time their conscience always seems to kick in and not before some horrendous crime has been commmitted against someone and their hand is caught in the proverbial cookie jar.

[pack momma]

Well said, So often we are the causes of our own misery, "reaping what we sow",
I must comment on your prisoner/conversion after 9 days. The prisons are full of converted, born again, what have you christians, and that is fine and good, BUT the sad part of this is that upon being released, 90% of them end up right back where they started. Whether it is in inability to readjust to the uninstitutional world or what. The crux of the matter is the knowledge they gain never gets past their brain or emotions, never reaching and taking root in the heart in order to become productive enough to continue living a christian life when they have the freedom to once again make life choices.
Hats off to those few who do. "Leave the 99 to bring back 1"

[Gourmetmisse]

Yes, I too think bad things will happen to people who make bad choices.
How do you explain when bad things happen to good people? That is when people question God.
Why is there a car accident caused by a drunk driver that severely injures and forever affects the life of an innocent person and their entire family, or why does a tree fall down during a storm and kill an innocent father and therefore affect his family forever. or why 9-11?

[pack momma]

Quite simple, actually

Ecc: 9:11 Things like 9-11 fit into the big picture I talked about before.

[DataJack]

does the bible contradict its self?
what was the first commandment that god gave?
did any one see jesus face?
who looked after creation while jesus/god was in marys womb?
who spoke to jesus when john the baptist baptized him?
if jesus was god why were his last words " father, forgive them for they know not what they do."?
if he was god could he not say...i forgive you for you know not what you do?
is god a god of love?
why is there a resurection?


i am being very serious here...i would like an answer to each of these questions no matter how silly and stupid they sound.

if this is the wrong place to post this please move it and let me know where it has been moved to.thanks in advance

[raybeck]

You know, there are probably more things in the Bible that we don't have answers to...like how could God have ALWAYS been? Alot of these things are called going on faith, that is a big part of the Christian religion...having faith! So a lot of the questions you posed in your last comment, Jack, you merely have to believe in and have faith, we don't have all the answers...yet...

[DataJack]

ah...but ray...there IS an answer for everyone of the questions i posted and ALL of them are backed by scripture...so...lets see if anyone can answer them...please

[pack momma]

ok, where should we start. I agree that the answers to all we need to know at this time is in the scrip, if we only look for it with an honest heart. Granted everything like comprehending Gods Infinate existance, isn't there, but right now that has no bearing on mankind being reconciled to God, which is what the whole Bible is about. Gods plan to do exactly that. Kind of taking a circular detour to get back to the point where man blew it, before moving on.
Personally I think a good place to start is Genesis 1;1 "In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth" verse 2 says about the earth that it was a formless waste." To me this means the earth was already there as part of the entire heavenly universal creation, and he is now turning his attention to it to begin doing something with it, as it were. So in answer to another question somewhere in this thread, the earth could have already been in existance for billions of years before God decided to do something with it. Ok so now God takes 6 "days" to make everything on the earth in order to prepare it for mankind. A logical order, light then dry land so vegetation can grow for animals to eat etc. I don't believe they were literal 24 hour days, though. More like time periods.

Data Jack poses a lot of questions regarding Jesus. verse 26 says "Let us make man in our image...." Who was God talking to.. the angels? no, according to Job 38:7 they were watching and applauded at the founding of the earth. who then? Proverbs 8:22-30 gives some interesting insight

I'll answer......you decide :)

[DataJack]

Proverbs 8:22-30 gives some interesting insight
I'll answer......you decide :)
if anyone has a good news bible [one of several i use] the translation in this one leaves no doubt god was talking to someone.

[Gourmetmisse]

Quite simple, actually

Ecc: 9:11 Things like 9-11 fit into the big picture I talked about before.
hi pack momma,
Ecc: 9:11 & 9:12 were great places to start looking. I pasted the 9:12 below
9:12 Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come:
As fish are caught in a cruel net,
or birds are taken in a snare,
so men are trapped by evil times
that fall unexpectedly upon them

The chapter 9 also says that we all have the same fate.
Thanks for pointing me there in Ecc. It is helpful at the moment.

________
misse

[pack momma]

James 1:13 was the other one I was thinking of regarding bad things happening, and where God fits in, I just couldn't find it the time.

[jamesglewisf]

if anyone has a good news bible [one of several i use] the translation in this one leaves no doubt god was talking to someone.

The GNT is one step away from a paraphrase. Don't develop theology based on the GNT.

[jamesglewisf]

Proverbs chapter 8 is a personification of wisdom. It was written to teach about the value of wisdom. It is not a quote of God talking to someone. The Bible uses many different literary devices, and this is just an example of one of them. You have to read Scripture within its context or else you can start making up new things that aren't there and using Scripture to support your own ideas, even if that is not your intent.

[pack momma]

Proverbs chapter 8 is a personification of wisdom. It was written to teach about the value of wisdom. It is not a quote of God talking to someone.


Proverbs chap 2 is extolling the benefits of acquiring wisdom. You might want to look over chapter 9 again, I did not infer this was a conversation between God and anyone, I was pointed out that this passages gives some insight at to who he was talking to in Genesis chapter 1. Believe me, I am very cognizant of context and and other scriptual support. I would never intentionally twist anything, nor will I rule out something I don't want to hear, IF it makes sense. As you know Proverbs was written primarily by Solomon as instruction to his son ( of course under divine inspiration) At that time the idea of the Messiahs coming was very vague at most and many scriptures hold many prophecies about him. Isaiah for example. Colossians 1:15-17 adds further information at a time after Jesus' arrival as things were becoming more clearer. Remember by now the Holy Spirit had already been poured out upon them to help them understand. And who better to personify God's wisdom than this one. Your might want to look at chapter 8 again.

Like I said before this is only my view of things. the scriptures speak, I listen
When Jesus was talking with the Samaritan woman at the well about worshipping with spirit and truth. She declared "we know when that one arrives (Messiah) he will declare to us all things openly. So whatever I study and believe has to make sense. No "great mysteries allowed"

Please give us your opinion of who he was talking to and why you feel that way

[raybeck]

The GNT is one step away from a paraphrase. Don't develop theology based on the GNT.

Jim, I must say I completely agree with you on this one!

[jamesglewisf]

I'm not following you. In the first post you mention chapter 8. Now you are talking about chapter 9. Did you just have a typo?

[pack momma]

yes a typo. I meant chapter 8 sorry

[Grimey]

{offtop}

I have a hard time following a lot of the posts in this thread. I think some of you are trying to be too clever. Instead of hinting at what you want to say or giving us clues or questions, just come out and say it clearly.

If you want to debate theology or anything for that matter, then do it in complete paragraphs. Don't hop around from thought to thought within the same paragraph. Make a statement, and then back it up with evidence. If you have a new point, start another paragraph.

I'm not perfect or even good at this debating stuff, but honestly, this thread gives me a headache. Some of the posts I can't even figure out what the point is. Why bring it up? Because your posts aren't passing the idiot test -- this idiot can't understand them. If you will write a little more simply, then maybe I'll do better.

[Gourmetmisse]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the title "Why does God allow...." and what Debby said at the top.

[raybeck]

{offtop}

If you want to debate theology or anything for that matter, then do it in complete paragraphs. Don't hop around from thought to thought within the same paragraph. Make a statement, and then back it up with evidence. If you have a new point, start another paragraph.

From one idiot to another, this seems to be going in circles, and if that was the intent...job well done.

[Grimey]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the title "Why does God allow...." and what Debby said at the top.
Good point. I think we got hijacked by datajack.

Sometimes threads kind of wander at FrappyDoo. They aren't strict about staying on topic.

For instance -- Hey Gormetmisse, only two more posts to lose your odiferous title.

Did you know that odiferous is a shortened variant of odoriferous?

Now I've hijacked the thread!!! {smash} {smash} {smash}

[Grimey]

{offtop} Raybeck, I think you lost your close quote [ /quote ] (without the spaces).

[Gourmetmisse]

I think I need to go visit an online dictionary. BRB

[Justawoman]

Gosh I'm glad you all saw it going in circles and getting off topic too. I didn't want to be the first to say it because I always seem to be the one that stirs the pot first and I hate being the one to do that all the time. Gotta give you all a chance don't I? Can we allow Gourmetmisse to loose her fart smeller? I mean she has that wonderful cooking name and all, the two kinda go together? *L*

If you want to know why God allows bad things to happen to good people a great place to start in the Bible is the story of Job. Funny how no one has mentioned this and the topic keeps trying to find some mystical deep meaning as to why bad things happen. Two words, Human Nature.

[raybeck]

Oh man...I hate it when that happens, Grimey! I'm just now getting brave enough to try some of that quoting...I'll get better, I promise!

[Gourmetmisse]

Okay, back on topic….The pastor at a church I went to a few years ago was really awesome. He gave a service one day about the five different ways God talks to you. I have looked everywhere and cannot find my notes. I can’t remember all five word for word but the two that still stand out are:
1. God talks to you at church (for example...when you hear a really good message and it clicks, and it feels like the pastor is talking directly to you about something personal that is going on in your life at that very moment)
2. God talks through pain (which I think 9-11 was a good example, for in my community it brought many folks close together)
If I do find my notes on this I will have something more meaningful to post about number 2 above. The message about how God speaks through pain was not addressing anything resembling the notion of "born again" prison convicts, it had more to do with why freak accidents occur.

___________
misse

[pack momma]

I was getting around to Job. really I was (smile)

Sorry, Grimey I am one who tends to offer clues. Why?
1. I am NOT going to shove my beliefs down anybody's
throat, and
2. One of my favorite scriptures in my own personal Bible research is 1 John 4:1 and Acts 17:11 referring to the people of Borea. I will reference scriptues to substantiant my point but, I think people should use their own Bible and look them up . Then there is basis for a discussion on how we apply the words God has included in his inspired word

it is easy to get off-track, maybe we need separate threads for the ongoing and never ending hot spots that constantly emerge

[DataJack]

my intent here was not to hyjack the thread nor to get it running in circles. i truely believe that by sharing veiws we all become better educated...i was sharing so others could share back...i see that this was the wrong place to do it..again....i am sorry

[Debby]

Wow! I have only read the first page of this, but I am going to read the other two pages next...but I wanted to reply to what i had read so far, before I forget. Jim, I do agree with you to a certain point. But I was always taught, and I believe, that God does not cause bad things to happen...he either allows Satan to cause them to happen or he doesn't. I know he destroyed Sodom and Gammorah, and he even smote whole families back in the old testiment just because the father lied about his tithing. But after Jesus died on the cross for us, God has much more mercy for us. Otherwise, he would have destroyed this world long ago...it is way worse now than Sodom and Gammorah. I don't think God causes bad things...he either allows them to happen or he doesn't. Sometimes, he may allow them because in the end it will bring someone closer to him. He has his reasons for what he allows Satan to do. But he doesn't cause it. I could be wrong, but this is what I believe. Either way, the most important thing is that we love him. :)



Debby, back to your point.

Sometimes God causes "bad" things to happen. Why was the man born blind? Most people would say this was a "bad" thing. He was born blind so that when Jesus restored his sight, it would bring glory to God.

Sometimes "bad" things happen because God is chastening, rebuking, or scourging us. In other words, he is punishing evil or correcting bad behavior. Why did God wipe out Soddom and Gommorah? Because of their wickedness.

Paul had a thorn in his side that God refused to remove because God said his grace was sufficient.

I heard an example once. If I decide to punch someone, how would God prevent that bad thing from happening? I'm not saying he couldn't; but if He did, would I still have the ability to make choices? Imagine a world where God prevented every bad thing from happening. We would all be robots. Would you like to live in a world where God prevented all evil or all poor choices or all bad circumstances? You're at the store, and you reach for the ice cream, but can't pick it up. You decide to go to Starbucks, but you can't walk in the door because God knows you'll need the $3 for your gas bill. You call to accept the job offer at IBM, but God redirects the call to the job offer at Dell. Your toddler is walking and starts to trip, but never hits the floor. Does anyone really want to live in a world where no "bad" things happen?

Good topic, Debster!

[Debby]

For the uninitiated, here is a quote from John MacArthur's, "The Gospel According to Jesus."


One of Jesus' biggest statments was "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). He took the name God revealed to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). Again, they picked up stones to stone him because they knew he was claiming to be God. He also said it in a series of declarations in John 6:51; 8:12; 9:5; 10:7; 10:11; 11:25; and 14:6).

I don't know if this makes any sense (the way I am explaining it, that is) but I believe that God and Jesus are the same, but yet I believe they are completely seperate. It is like an egg...an egg is one. But yet, and egg has three distinctive, completely different parts, (the shell, the yolk and the white) each with it's own distinctive characteristics. The Trinity...the 3 in one...all one, but yet all different and seperate.

[Debby]

well...oncebyten...you are 100% right in saying what you did. i am sorry debbie...i did not mean to be cruel and i very much was. i will leave the post the way is is as it is a good humilty thing for me...i really am sorry...i come on VERY strong and it was not called for. however i stand by what i say...but not the way i said it...it was cruel and not the proper way for a lover of god to speak to another...again...i am sorry for being mean and cruel in that post

DataJack...I forgive you...at first I was offended, I don't know where your anger came from. I do not consider myself "enlightened" unless you consider the fact that I love God and believe in him, to be enlightened, which in fact, of course, it is...but honestly...your reaction to my post stunned me. But I forgive you. We all make mistakes and post things we later regret. I am far from a "perfect" Christian. I don't think there is such a thing. I like to drink sometimes on the weekends...some would say that makes me not a Christian. I disagree...I think drinking is only a sin if you endulge in it too much or it makes you do things you normally wouldn't. I also have some bad habits that I am working on.....the point is...I'm not one of those "holier than thou" people...all I am is a human being who loves God and tries to do her very best to serve him, although I disappoint him many times.

[Debby]

God allows bad things to happen because.......Since mankinds fall from grace in the garden of Eden, God has taken a largely "hands off" approach to allow Saten to prove his point. That point being that man didn't need God to decide right and wrong for them. They could do it themselves. This is important because already miriads of angles were already in heaven watching. Does'nt the Bible say the angels in heaven applauded mankinds creation??? Anyway, if God would have just zapped Adam and Eve right then and there and started over... The angels could have begun wondering "hmmm maybe this guys right, God didn't even give them a chance, and what about us, we are a higher lifeform than them?" This is the
same reason God allowed Saten, this angel turned bad,to continue living. After all he sinned before Adam and Eve. And even though God took the "hands-off" approach, doesn't mean he has been sitting around watching us suffer and doing nothing. Right then and there he made up his mind how to "fix" it all. The very first prophecy was uttered in the sentencing there in the garden. To the snake (Saten) about the crushing in the head and the heel. The heel , Jesus being killed (a temporary setback for him, but necessary to redeem mankind. A perfect life (Jesus) for a perfect life (Adam) The crushing of the head (Saten) eventual total destruction.
But no matter, how we suffer, be assured nothing gets by God. Somewhere the scrip. says that he stores our tears in a bag at his side, and that he knows even when a sparrow falls.
When we understand the big picture it is easier to deal with.


Just for the record (smile) I believe what makes sense to me and what the Bible says, not tradition or any one secular religious group.

OMG< I just noticed, I've been promoted. I'm now a Fart Smeller, Hope y'all are "airing" icecreme

I like your post. :) I hadn't thought of it in exactly that way, but I agree with what you said. And congrats on being a fart smeller! (bet you don't hear that everyday!)

[Debby]

Justawoman...I enjoyed your post...this part especially.

We were watching the news last night and they talked to the man that the Pope saved from death row. I just went and tried to find his name. Google sent me everywhere but where I wanted to go. It happened when the Pope came to the US for that huge visit. Well anyway, Foxnews was talking to the man, still in prison, and I loved this one comment he made, " I am a christian. I became a christian 9 days after being put in prison."

So I will always believe that bad things will happen as long as folks like the feeling of sinning and living on the edge. When they caught is the time their conscience always seems to kick in and not before some horrendous crime has been commmitted against someone and their hand is caught in the proverbial cookie jar.

[Debby]

does the bible contradict its self?
what was the first commandment that god gave?
did any one see jesus face?
who looked after creation while jesus/god was in marys womb?
who spoke to jesus when john the baptist baptized him?
if jesus was god why were his last words " father, forgive them for they know not what they do."?
if he was god could he not say...i forgive you for you know not what you do?
is god a god of love?
why is there a resurection?


i am being very serious here...i would like an answer to each of these questions no matter how silly and stupid they sound.

if this is the wrong place to post this please move it and let me know where it has been moved to.thanks in advance

If my father were still alive, he could answer each and every one of your questions. Unfortunately, I do not know the exact scriptures that each of these answers is found in. My dad would have known. But I must say, in answer to this one...

"who spoke to jesus when john the baptist baptized him?
if jesus was god why were his last words " father, forgive them for they know not what they do."?
if he was god could he not say...i forgive you for you know not what you do?"

It kind of speaks for itself. Jesus was speaking to his father. God.

[Debby]

Proverbs chap 2 is extolling the benefits of acquiring wisdom. You might want to look over chapter 9 again, I did not infer this was a conversation between God and anyone, I was pointed out that this passages gives some insight at to who he was talking to in Genesis chapter 1. Believe me, I am very cognizant of context and and other scriptual support. I would never intentionally twist anything, nor will I rule out something I don't want to hear, IF it makes sense. As you know Proverbs was written primarily by Solomon as instruction to his son ( of course under divine inspiration) At that time the idea of the Messiahs coming was very vague at most and many scriptures hold many prophecies about him. Isaiah for example. Colossians 1:15-17 adds further information at a time after Jesus' arrival as things were becoming more clearer. Remember by now the Holy Spirit had already been poured out upon them to help them understand. And who better to personify God's wisdom than this one. Your might want to look at chapter 8 again.

I like how you think! You have given me a great deal to think about, and I am going to read Proverbs again! I am ashamed that I do not know the bible as well as I should. I do read it, but I get so busy that many (okay most) nights, I forget. I understand too what Jim means about taking things out of context. I have been just skipping around lately in the bible, opening it and reading whatever I landed on...thinking maybe whatever I read would be meant for me...but I need to start at the beginning of a book in the bible and read it all the way through. It is too easy to read whatever we want into something if we don't read it all. (in my case)

[Debby]

Gosh I'm glad you all saw it going in circles and getting off topic too. I didn't want to be the first to say it because I always seem to be the one that stirs the pot first and I hate being the one to do that all the time. Gotta give you all a chance don't I? Can we allow Gourmetmisse to loose her fart smeller? I mean she has that wonderful cooking name and all, the two kinda go together? *L*

If you want to know why God allows bad things to happen to good people a great place to start in the Bible is the story of Job. Funny how no one has mentioned this and the topic keeps trying to find some mystical deep meaning as to why bad things happen. Two words, Human Nature.

Now that I have finally read through all of this, I thought it was going in circles as well, but it did give me alot to think about and I think it is a good thread. :) I apologize for making so many posts here tonight...I don't know how to make more than one quote per post, so I just quoted and posted all the ones I wanted to comment on. I apologize. I think the main thing here is that we love God. We are not supposed to have all the answers. We will know them all when we meet Jesus in Heaven. But for now...we just have to trust and have faith. The story of Job has always bothered me. I used to ask my dad how if Job served God and loved God, how could God allow such terrible things to happen to him. My dad had an answer, and it made sense....but I can't remember it right now...but all I know is I still love God, I trust him, and he has a reason for everything that happens. My mother served God all her life...but for the last 10 years of it...she was brain dead, pretty much. She went from a woman speaking in tongues to a woman who did and said things that embarrassed my Christian father something awful. Things she would have been mortified to have known she had said or done before. Just to point out what kinds of things I am talking about...She asked the minister if he had had sex. Her mind was just gone. Dad prayed daily that God would heal her...he even used to say that maybe God allowed it to happen so that when she was healed it would be a huge testimonial to the whole community. But...she never got healed. And he died 3 years after she did. I don't know why God allowed mom's mind to go. I won't know until I get to heaven. But I know there was reason. I'm sure there was. My brother says it was because mom had worried so much all of her life (she was a worrier...worried about everything, constantly) that God finally decided her mind needed a rest.....she was actually never happier than she was when her mind was gone.

[DataJack]

DataJack...I forgive you.....We all make mistakes and post things we later regret..... I like to drink sometimes on the weekends...some would say that makes me not a Christian. I disagree...I think drinking is only a sin if you endulge in it too much or it makes you do things you normally wouldn't. I also have some bad habits that I am working on.....the point is...I'm not one of those "holier than thou" people...all I am is a human being who loves God and tries to do her very best to serve him, although I disappoint him many times.
thank you for extending your forgiveness to me debbie...i know i can come on as such a hard butt at times and i do not mean to except that the word is like jeremiah chapter 20 verse 9...sometimes i take that verse to literal and just burn up the keyboard with out thinking.
as far as you drinking goes as long as you do not take it to excess it is ok...
proverbs chapter 31 verses 6 and 7...if further proof is needed that drinking alcohol is in itself not a sin john chapter 2 verses 7 to 11 should be an answer to that question. verse 11 says that this is the FIRST of the miracles performed by jesus...if drinking alcohol was a sin would jesus have done what he did? no i do not think so for that would be misleading and jesus says later on in his ministry........woe to the one stumbling [ misleading ] his sheep.
its getting drunk to the point of forgetting what you are doing that is wrong or putting drink before all else.
to quote you again: all I am is a human being who loves God and tries to do my very best to serve him, although I disappoint him many times...thats what i am too...just trying to learn and share..

debbie.....thankyou again for your exteneded mercy of forgiving me and i hope you and i can have a civil exchange of ideas...its not you i worry about being civil..its me...so if you take offense at what i say just let me know and i will say sorry and try to explain my veiws in a differrent way...
thankyou

[Debby]

thank you DataJack. :) But I don't have any extended mercy... my mercy gets awul short sometimes. It is just that i knew you meant no harm, and you seem so nice, and we both love Christ. :)

[pack momma]

Ok Debbie, I guess its time for me to weigh in what I think of Job. Gotta remember the big picture and issues raised in Genesis, because this is the crux of everything else. 1st. Satan called God a liar when he told Adam and Eve they wouldn't die, a lie that continues to be perpetuated today by just about every religion there is (another hot topic for another thread) By telling Eve that by eating the fruit she would be like God in knowing good and bad, he insinuated that God was keeping something good away from them, hence slandering Gods good name before the entire univese. Remember too that God is giving Satan time to prove his point once for all time. Once this issue gets settled, it will never need to be addressed again. Court is in session and the staging ground is right here on earth.

Now Job............I find this very interesting in that this is one place in the Bible that God actually brags about something when he comments to Satan that there is no one on earth like Job in his devotion to God. Here again Satan slanders God before the angels by saying to the extent of "yeah sure, he serves you because of what he gets out of it. Take it all away once and see what happens" God allows Saten to go after Job, but tells him not to harm Job himself. We all know what happens. but Satan still isn't satisfied, so he goes back to God and says "yeah well that didn't work, but you can bet if I make him suffer he will curse you" again God allows Satan to act directly against Job but cautions him that he is not permitted to kill Job. Again we know what happens. Now poor old Job had no clue about his role in the overall big picture, but he continued faithful even when being put upon by his "friends", surely he must had done something bad for God to smite him so, but Job insists that God doesn't act that way. It would appear that even his wife had turned against him. I have to interject about the wife. Although she is vilified by every religion I can think of for telling Job to curse God and die. Just remember this woman was also grieving for all her children and here is her husband enduring unbearable suffering for who knows why.....
could it be, perhaps, that just maybe she grasping at straws to end his suffering?????? anyway, there are many lessons to be learned in the book of Job. one of which is that God abides by his own laws. namely when someone is wronged compensation is to be paid. God didn't do anything to Job, but because of the big picture he allowed Satan to do so. During this trial he protected Job's life and although Satan did nothing to right the wrongs he did to Job, God stepped in and not only put a stop to Satans torments of Job, but provided compensation to Job for all that he lost, 7 times over, if memory serves, not the required 3. Job, though unknowingly, provided a sterling example of proving Satan to be the liar and manslayer he is. This account also shows us that God is not only willing and able, but will undo all the damage that Satan has caused to us, whether is be directly or as a result of our sinful condition (also not our fault completely)

When God finally (in our eyes it has been a long time, but with God a thousand years is as if only a day) decides enough is enough there will be no doubt throughout the entire universe that God is Justice personified when Satan is destroyed (the bruising in the head) God's good name will have been cleared of all Satan's lies and he can get on with the business of what he originally had in mind for the earth and the people on it.

[Debby]

Thank you. This is the first explanation of Job that I have ever heard that made any sense to me. I do still struggle with why he allowed it, even to prove Satan wrong...to allow such horrible suffering to his child when he could have stopped it, just still does bother me. But I love God, and I know he loves us. I think Satan tried to throw the story of Job at me to cause me to wonder. I trust God, I know he has a good reason for everything he does and he loves us. I just still don't totally understand why he allowed his child who loved him, and served him so faithfully to go through what he did. I feel guilty and unworthy for feeling this way, and I worry that I will make God unhappy with me for questioning it. But it does bother me a bit. But I still believe and trust that God loves as and that we are his children and that he will take care of us. I feel so unworthy of his love...I disappoint him so many times, I know...but thanks to Jesus dying on the cross for us, God has extended his mercy and he will not leave us.

[pack momma]

Debbie, I'm glad if I could help if only a little bit. Try to think of God's allowing Job to suffer so horribly this way. Again, its the big picture. If he could allow his closest most intimate heavenly son (albeit with his concent, see Heb 12:2) to sacrifice his life in such a painful and humiliating way (Imagine Gods own pain and anger at having to stand by and helplessly watch. His own first born, most beloved, perfect sinless son being killed as a blasphemeous crimianl, at the hand of lesser beings in order according to his own laws (surely in injury to himself by submitting to his own laws) in order to ultimately redeem mankind back to himself. Jesus knew what was at stake, although Job did not, was IMperfect and really thought his God had abandoned him. But think, were is Job now? In heaven with God and Jesus, or waiting in the grave for a furture resurrection? Whatever you might believe, don't you think it would be reasonable that he would certainly know by now the full extent (big picture) of what had happened to him and the rings of praisesthroughout heaven and the angles of this little imperfect, inferior species, to the angels. proving Satan to be the stinking liar that he is. Personally I think in being informed of the full extent of the role he played in vindicating Gods great name and reputation before all the heavenly hosts, and his story being recorded as part of the Bible canon for all of us to draw stength and encouragement from. I think he would be very proud and honored that he was chosen for such an honorable and important task.
The young friend (the last one who was on Job's side reminds him in 36:6-11 that God never turns his attention away from the afflicted one who is righteous, and that they will finish their days in what is good. If you read the last chapter you will see how God turned around Job's condition and the very last verse reads how he lived on for another 146 years and died "old and satisfied with his days" all this before knowing the causes and reasons for his afflictions. For all he knew it could have been as Ecc 9:11 says about "time and unforseen circumstances happen to all of us" (memory not exact quote"

[pack momma]

opps, didn't mean to see double.

[Debby]

Thank you. You have made me feel so much better about the story of Job and i even sent what you said to one of my brothers, who is a devoted Christain, but who I know has struggled with the story of Job, and why. I can't still say I understand why...I don't. But I had also never thought about the fact that his allowing his son to die on the cross for us, in such a horrible, painful way...and yet we know how much he loved his son....makes the Job story a bit more understandable. God is not standing by with a big stick ready to beat us to the ground every time we mess up (if so, I would have been long gone) He does love us. And I always have known that. How could anyone allow their son to be treated so cruely just to save a bunch (okay, millions) of unworthy sinners, if he did not love us? I still don't understand Job...I probably never will...but god says...when we get to heaven...we will ask why, and he will tell us. We are not supposed to understand it all till then. That is part of it...part of trusting.

[DataJack]

debbie.....i am not trying to be mean or cruel here....but you made a statement as follows...."but god says...when we get to heaven...we will ask why, and he will tell us" where in the bible does it say that?

[Debby]

debbie.....i am not trying to be mean or cruel here....but you made a statement as follows...."but god says...when we get to heaven...we will ask why, and he will tell us" where in the bible does it say that?

I don't honestly know exactly where in the Bible it says that. It is in one of the hymns we sing at church, and also my father told me that we would know all the answers when we got to heaven, but we should just trust him here on earth, even though we don't know all the reasons. My dad said it was in the bible that we won't have all the answers till we get to heaven...but I can't tell you where exactly the scripture he was referring to came from. All I know is that this was a man of God...who served God to the fullest, he lived and breathed God..and compared to him I fall very short. He spoke in tongues and also gave interpretations from God. What he said, I took as truth, because he would not have said it if he didn't know it to be true from God. Not knowing my father, I can understand you questioning it. But if you knew how very close he was to God, and the love he had for God...it would be easy to understand how I would trust my dad when he told me this.

[Justawoman]

Thank you. You have made me feel so much better about the story of Job and i even sent what you said to one of my brothers, who is a devoted Christain, but who I know has struggled with the story of Job, and why. I can't still say I understand why...I don't. But I had also never thought about the fact that his allowing his son to die on the cross for us, in such a horrible, painful way...and yet we know how much he loved his son....makes the Job story a bit more understandable. God is not standing by with a big stick ready to beat us to the ground every time we mess up (if so, I would have been long gone) He does love us. And I always have known that. How could anyone allow their son to be treated so cruely just to save a bunch (okay, millions) of unworthy sinners, if he did not love us? I still don't understand Job...I probably never will...but god says...when we get to heaven...we will ask why, and he will tell us. We are not supposed to understand it all till then. That is part of it...part of trusting.

I don't know if this will help or not Debby. My mother-inlaw has a belief and it goes like this:

God doesn't wake up each morning looking for who he can zap. Instead, He is there constantly holding a big basket of blessings. He is waiting for us to start our days with Him on our lips and in our hearts/minds. On the days we get up and take off like a shot we leave those blessings behind. God isn't going to follow us around begging us to take His blessings. But if we start each day with a " I love you, Heavenly Father" attitude then God showers our days with Blessings and Tools to get us through anything.

She also has a small post it note by her front door. It says," Why should God give me new blessings today if I haven't took care of the ones He gave me yesterday."

[Debby]

I don't know if this will help or not Debby. My mother-inlaw has a belief and it goes like this:

God doesn't wake up each morning looking for who he can zap. Instead, He is there constantly holding a big basket of blessings. He is waiting for us to start our days with Him on our lips and in our hearts/minds. On the days we get up and take off like a shot we leave those blessings behind. God isn't going to follow us around begging us to take His blessings. But if we start each day with a " I love you, Heavenly Father" attitude then God showers our days with Blessings and Tools to get us through anything.

She also has a small post it note by her front door. It says," Why should God give me new blessings today if I haven't took care of the ones He gave me yesterday."

I like that!!!! Thank you!!! :)

[Justawoman]

Your welcome Deb. I try to remember that and it does help me.

[Radu]

If School were always easy, what would be the point? On that same note, why does it keep getting harder and harder the further along we get?

The answer is that with each trial, we learn. Whether the trial comes in consequence of our own actions, or due to an entirely outside force, it is always a learning experience. The most impressive people I know are the ones who have gone through the most. They come out the most Christlike, if they endure it with faith. If they murmer, though, then they ussually end up worse.

God is a god of love, not of comdemnation. He wants us to be better. If we truely understood his whole plan of salvation for us, we would rejoice when a test came our way.

[tLby&ky#6:24]

We need to take care when we try and interpret what God's intentions are when He doesn't specifically tell us in His Word. When bad things happen, we want to comfort. That's good. But the greatest comfort I've ever received was when others bore my pain in silence rather than trying to explain why God allowed it. God silently bore the greatest pain silently as He watched His one and only Son, who had never known sin, bear all our filth, sin, hate, etc. on the cross. In times of crises I find it helpful to remember what God has revealed to us about Himself. I cannot believe or serve an almost good God, an almost all-knowing God, ...an almost perfect God. God is perfectly good, all-powerful, all-knowing - the great I AM. When bad things happen I just have to trust God. I don't think I can adequately explain why things happen and it is perfectly fine to admit, yeah, that was bad but you know, I know my Father and I've trusted Him not only with my life but with my eternal soul. Never doubt in the dark what you know to be true in the light. His love endures forever.