Questions on displays of "Christian"

[Gourmetmisse]

So, I have not had the courage to post a question...but here goes my first try which I've pulled from another thread because it is a real point I ponder:


What I find myself wondering about is why you find Christians in the workplace that add a <>< fish next to their signatures, .................................................................................................... ............... who you see will backstab in the workplace, talk behind peoples back, treat others they work with rudeness or coldly.

I think this quote, if I may.... says the bible's view on the type of Christian vs. Non Christian that puzzles me the most:

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).

And then after considering this, I question if the non-church going person who loves his/her brothers is in "the darkness" while the Christian who is not a living example of "loving their brother" is really in the light just because of their public display of being a christian. {fonzy}

And the puzzling I do on this is based on people I have met who vary greatly in how "good" they are to their brother or their neighbor. Some devoted Christians, some who haven't been in a church in 40 years. Not all those who attempt to portray a "perfect Christian life" are doing more "good" in the world.

[jamesglewisf]

To understand John's use of the imagery of dark and light, you need to start with John 3:9-11
John 3:17-21
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

A Biblical Theology of the New Testament, Roy B. Zuck
The coming of the light (Jesus Christ) into the world has precipitated a judgment (3:17-18). The judgment consists in a person's response to the light, that is, to Jesus. One is faced with only two alternatives: to come to the light (i.e., to believe in Jesus; 1:12; 3:18) or to shrink back into the darkness and thus incur condemnation (i.e. to reject Jesus; 3:17). Just as John would refer to those who believe as possessing eternal life already in the present (5:24), so he would also speak of those who reject the light (i.e. Jesus) as being already condemned (3:18).
See also John 8:12
John 8:12
12 Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life."

In 1 John 1:5-7, John says that "God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all." If you say that you have fellowship with God (i.e. you have a relationship with God) and yet walk in darkness, you are a liar. Zuck says that "Light and darkness are mutually exclusive and cannot coexist."
1 John 1:5-7
5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:9-11 teaches that there is a statement you can make where the truth of the statement can be determined by whether or not you have love for fellow believers --
1 John 2:9-11
9 The one who says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
10 The one who loves his brother abides in the light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John spends a lot of time distinguishing between people who are Christians versus people who simply profess to be Christians.

Verse 9 is talking about someone who professes to be a Christian but really isn't. How can you tell he isn't really a Christian? He hates brother (fellow Christians). "In the light" refers to a Christian; it is a person who walks in the light of the truth of God. "In the darkness" is a non-Christian; it is a person who rejects the light of the truth of God.

Verse 10 talks about someone who professes to be a Christian and really is one. A real Christian loves his brother (fellow Christians), and for this reason there is not cause for stumbling in him. What this means is that people who look at him will understand how a true Christian behaves. If they mimic his behavior, they will behave properly. If they mimic the behavior of the person in verse 9, they will stumble (sin) because they will be hating their brother.

Verse 11 returns to the person in verse 9. If you hate your brother, you are not a true believer, regardless of what you claim.

So, just because you have a fish on your signature, it doesn't mean that you are really a believer. How do you tell if someone really is one or not? Well, I would say that a true believer will respond to correction from the Bible. If you show them that 1 John says hating your brother is not consistent with their profession of faith, then they should repent and work on doing better. If they refuse to repent, then I would go to them with another believer and see if they respond to the correction of two brothers. If they still don't repent, then it is time for church discipline.

Remember that no Christian is perfect. That's not an excuse for poor behavior, but it explains why we need correction, not rejection.

[jamesglewisf]

BTW, a devoted Christian, by definition, loves his brothers (fellow Christians). It would be doubtful that a devoted Christian would avoid church for 40 years. Church is where you would have fellowship with your brothers. It is not impossible, but it is improbable.

The basic disciplines of the Christian life are illustrated on one of my web pages - http://www.marriedadults.com/wheel.php. Fellowship is spending time with your brothers in Christ. That means church for most people. You also have Bible reading, prayer, obedience, and witnessing. This is an old illustration from Campus Crusade for Christ.

Someone who hasn't been to church in 40 years probably isn't very familiar with the Bible -- not because you have to be in church to learn about the Bible, but because if you were very familiar with the Bible, you would probably be in church.

Christians cannot thrive in seclusion. The Bible talks about the church being the body of Christ. We all have different abilities and strengths, and we need each other. We benefit from togetherness. My strength might be prayer. Yours might be teaching. Another's might be encouraging. Another's might be giving. Put us all together, and we are a complete body. The illustration is that a body without hands or feet is not complete. A body without encouragers or givers is not complete. Put us all together in Christ, and we are complete.

Most of the letters of the new testament talk about how we are supposed to live together as believers and live together in the world.

[Gourmetmisse]

Thank you for your reply Jim.
My questions became confusing in this line:
And the puzzling I do on this is based on people I have met who vary greatly in how "good" they are to their brother or their neighbor. Some devoted Christians, some who haven't been in a church in 40 years. Not all those who attempt to portray a "perfect Christian life" are doing more "good" in the world.

Really I should have put "There are people in my life who declare they are devoted christians with a fish under their signature, and there are others who are always doing things for the community and treat others with respect and say they believe in God."

I think this is the puzzling part for me. How are both of these people judged? The christian with the fish goes on being "beastly" but asking for forgiveness for their sins, and the other person thinks they are a believer, contributes to their community and is generous with charities but is living in seclusion.

[Justawoman]

I don't think you will find this in the Bible Misse but my own opinion is this:

If you claim to have knowledge of the Bible and how God wants us to act and you don't follow Him as close as you can, but you go own professing your love and still treat your fellow man horribly then I think God will have a few more harsher words for you at judgement.

Our love for our fellow man should be something we don't have to talk about to make ourselves look good. It should be something we do second nature and without much thought given to the fact we are doing it. Those few who profess to be Christian and go about doing good works and making for sure you know they are doing them don't have their heart in the right place. They are looking for praise from you. And those who just talk a good game and then cuss their neighbor when they think no one is listening just say they are Christian for selfish reasons too. IMHO

[jamesglewisf]

If you are a Christian, the penalty for your sins has already been paid on the cross. There is not another judgment for your sins.

1 John gives the first person you described no assurance that they are a Christian. A Christian will sin, but to be characterized as constantly behaving "beastly," I would assume that you are professing to be a Christian but really aren't.

The second person -- if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead (Romans 10:9) -- then you are a Christian. There is no thinking about it. Your good works will follow your faith. As I said in the first sentence, your sins have already been judged when Jesus died on the cross.

There is a second judgment for Christians called the bema seat (the judgment seat of Christ). It is not a judgment of your sins, but a judgment of your good deeds. Your good deeds will be judged as to whether they are gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw. The level of your reward is different for the level of your good deed.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

[Gourmetmisse]

Thank you for pointing me at that James. I will read that section with great interest. It almost seems like my posting should have been on "Vent Your Spleen", but I am very glad to have been pointed in the direction you sent me. - 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.