Patriot Act vs. Enabling Act

[Noseypoo]

While I was surfing the web for a good debate, I ran into this website:

The Patriot Act compared to The Enabling Act (http://www.furnitureforthepeople.com/actpat.htm)

This page contains the following articles on The USA Patriot Act:

1) How the Patriot Act Compares to the Ermächtigungsgesetz (Enabling Act)
2) A 21st Century Comparison of The Enabling Act and The Patriot Act
3) Ten Key Dangers of the Patriot Act
4) Bill Moyer's NOW Comments on the Patriot Act
5) The USA Patriot Act, A Legal Analysis by Charles Doyle

I just thought it would make for a good debate if nothing else.
Think there's anything to it? Is it just being blown out of proportion?

[Justawoman]

I am not agree with the Patriot Act but all I got out of the site you provided is an entity or group that is Anti-Bush.

[DataJack]

I went to the site too. Here are some quotes:

"The Bush administration wants us to fight in Afghanistan, to fight in Iraq, and to fight wherever terrorists may be hiding. And what, pray tell, are we fighting for? Well, according to the White House, we're fighting for freedom. "

I was going to post more quotes , then as I read the document I had to agree with J.A.W. I think its just another "We hate Bush" media attack.

Right or wrong, no matter what anyone says, President Bush has the welfare of his country and more importantly his country's people at heart.
He may have a bit of a cowboy way of doing things, but I for one feel safer with him in the white house than some others who want in.
As he said in a speech once, ".....Not on my watch!" He was talking about going into the country's that harbor terrorists. His dilemma was, should he stay out of these country's and let these people build more weapons and attack America on its home soil or take the fight over to them. He chose to take the fight over to them. When faced with this choice he said " I will not allow people to build weapons to attack American people on their home soil. Not on my watch."

I honestly don't think I will see another President as well loved or respected as President Reagan. But in my opinion President Bush deserves one heck of a lot more than what the media is giving him.

As always this is just my opinion and I mean to offend no one.

[Noseypoo]

I was going to post more quotes , then as I read the document I had to agree with J.A.W. I think its just another "We hate Bush" media attack.Probably is, but the comparison of the two Acts is interesting nonetheless {cool}

[Justawoman]

He may have a bit of a cowboy way of doing things,

And what, might I add, is wrong with doing things "a bit cowboy"?

Once again I am sent to my corner to ponder this statement in bewilderment. You all have shocked and awed me to no end this week.

[Noseypoo]

You all have shocked and awed me to no end this week.How so? {fonzy}

[DataJack]

Well J.A.W.
The problem with doing things " a bit cowboy" is that y'all upset the city slickers for being even partly cowboy and upset the cowboys and girls for not being cowboy enough.
If'n it twas all up to me, I would have went in to Iraq full cowboy and settled this thing we all have a goin' on over there once and for all.

And nosey you are right. It was neat comparing the two. But I think that the people who posted that failed to see something.
No matter what the American public would not stand for a dictator in the white house. Thats why the founding fathers put into the constitution the right to bear arms thing. To prevent a dictator from taking over the white house. Not only that but I think the armed forces would rebel too.
And thats what the people who posted that forget.

And Justawoman?...if'n y'all gettin' shocked, pull yer dar gone finger outa da electrical socket will ya?

HEE HAWW...RIDE 'EM COWBOY !!

[Noseypoo]

{laughc}

{popcorn}

[Justawoman]

Well I was shocked to no end that Hanna has never had nachos. I was shocked that Bob had no idea we all missed him. What does that say about us all. I was in awe that Jack and I actually agreed about this thread's link being an Anti-Bush site.

[Justawoman]

I am also shocked that you two didn't notice my play on words or should I be awed that I got by with it.

Shock and Awe!!

[Justawoman]

Well J.A.W.
The problem with doing things " a bit cowboy" is that y'all upset the city slickers for being even partly cowboy and upset the cowboys and girls for not being cowboy enough.
If'n it twas all up to me, I would have went in to Iraq full cowboy and settled this thing we all have a goin' on over there once and for all.

HEE HAWW...RIDE 'EM COWBOY !!

Well Data you got me to think what it means " a bit cowboy". I can drive 13 miles north of me and watch cowboys work a herd all day. They move cattle from one pen to another. They always seem to have each other's backs and they work til the job is done. I had a girlfriend in high school whose father drove cattle the traditional way. She would comment on the fact that instead of getting to " run around" all weekend with us girls she had to work driving cattle from one field to the next. I never saw a more hardworking family. I might have been a farmer's daughter but I am glad I grew up knowing what it meant to be a bit cowboyish.

So with that said I dug out a poem I have about keepin it cowboy. I am only including a few verses here. It is by Baxter Black. After re-reading this poem I realized that the service men and women in Irag are "keepin' it cowboy". Establishing freedom is not a job that will happen over night. There is a country song that says it best too... "you got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." Keep it Cowboy Datajack, keep it cowboy.


Have you noticed lately how the world is changin’
That our values are adrift upon the sea.
But let me say, one man can make a difference
And I’ll put it to you plain as I can be.

Can I count on you to keep it cowboy
When the bad guys have your back against the wall.
When they try and buy your soul with things that glitter
Can you shed the great temptation, after all.

For you are your brother’s keeper....but you know that,
And duty bound, you are, to do your part.
Will you stand up for what’s right when guns are blazin’
And the weak-kneed pansies all are losing heart.

[DataJack]

Well, I think you may have taken me the wrong way J.A.W. I am VERY thankful that Mr.Bush is a bit of a cowboy.
To quote your quote:
Quote:


Have you noticed lately how the world is changin’
That our values are adrift upon the sea.
But let me say, one man can make a difference
And I’ll put it to you plain as I can be.

Can I count on you to keep it cowboy
When the bad guys have your back against the wall.
When they try and buy your soul with things that glitter
Can you shed the great temptation, after all.

For you are your brother’s keeper....but you know that,
And duty bound, you are, to do your part.
Will you stand up for what’s right when guns are blazin’
And the weak-kneed pansies all are losing heart.
end quote

The bad guys put the back of Mr. Bush (the president) against the wall. He chose to take the fight to them. He was duty bound as the President of the U.S.A. to do that. I just think he did it a bit cowboy and did not go in all the way. He should have declared war on every state/country that harbored terrorists who threaten the peace/lives of the people of the U.S.A.

To say Saddam and his family were not plotting to kill Americans is like saying he never gassed the Kurds. In my opinion, the world is a lot safer with out Saddam in power.
Next on his agenda should be Iran and Korea who threaten world peace with their nuclear programs. He should cut off aid to any country found supporting terrorists.

By the way, I grew up country too, and have rode herd on cattle, and shot bears who were a threat to the pigs we had. My first bear was at age 7 with my dad.
I know what it means to be " cowboy" in the true sense of the word.
I also will be grateful until the day I die for the young men and women who choose to put their lives at risk so you and I can live in peace.

Its so easy to be an armchair general and not be over there and still second guess the pros. Mr Bush is probably doing all that he can and still be democratic about it.

[Justawoman]

Nope didn't take it the wrong way Jack. You just got me to thinking is all. I wholeheartedly agree with you 100%.

[Radu]

Sorry, this was the first time I realized this topic, so I had to post.

Putting the war and Bush aside, I don't think the Patriot Act is a good thing. It does have shades of Fascism throughout it (and I'm not using that word for shock value, like most people. I have actually studied fascism, and know what it means). The fact that it's called "The Patriot Act", to begin with, puts pressure that if you're against it, than you're anti-American.

A person can be imprisoned, without charge, without an attourney, for an indefinite amount of time. The administration says it's to protect us from dangerous terrorists, but they should at least be able to prove that they're a terrorist enough to be held up in court. Imagine if you were among the prime suspect's etnicity or background. It'd scare the daylights out of me.

Also, as part of the Patriot Act, is something else that is little known amongst Americans, that the main-stream media never covered. (I'm sounding so tabloidish) It's called the Total Information Awareness Act (look it up). Within it, are regulations for the Petnegon to establish and maintain a database that keeps track of everybody's ATM purchases, library cards, driving records, e-mails, any kind of transaction or transfer of information that can be tracked electronically. It's being collected as we speak, and people are clueless about it.

I'll agree, it does increase security. It's the kind of access the CIA in Hollywood has had for years, but how much should our privacy be taken, in the name of security? What if it falls into the wrong hands? What if it's ever used for unjust purposes? What if the world ended tomorrow, and other such over-hypothetical disasters took place?

The Patriot Act gives waivers to Constitutional rights in many instances. And the "You think we'd know if such a thing was happening" argument forgets the notion that if "we" know, then so does the enemy. That's why a lot of this is kept secret. And why this post makes me sound like a conspiracy psychopath, instead of actually informed.

And, FYI, I still support Bush, so this isn't a masked attack on him.

[jamesglewisf]

Have you read the Patriot act and seen these provisions, or are you getting your information from some website?

[Radu]

I actually got it from a college Political Science class, which showed a PBS News program. Is there any place where I can get the actual text of the Patriot Act? Otherwise, the only way I can back-up those claims is through some website.

[Alec]

You can get the full text of it at a DOJ website - http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/

There is a link that says "Text of the Patriot Act."

[Radu]

It may take me a while to find the time to, and actually commit myself to, read through to find some of that stuff, but I'll do it. My respect for my favorite professor and PBS is at stake. The professor I can afford to loose, but not the nation's highest rated public television station.

[Radu]

I havn't forgotten about this. I've spent a lot of my spare time at college looking at the text but, unfortunately, while I'm there I can't copy any text. You don't have to take my word though. Look at the text that's posted on that website, and you can see in the table of contents where you can go to look at the survance regulations, and what information can be requested.

Pretty much, I was able to confirm the following:
- A terrorist (who this act applies to) is defined as anybody who does, or plans to, break the law with the intent of hurting citizens. I was relieved to read that, actually, since I was affraid that the Act could be used against anybody who the government is looking for an exception on. It addresses the issue of not discriminating against Arabs or Muslims, but there's really nothing they can do to make sure it doesn't happen.

- The FBI or CIA can demand information about a costumer from any business or library, with permission from a judge (ie: a warrant).

- A suspected terrorist can be held for (if I remember correctly) up to 90 days without a warrant, and indefinitely with permission from a judge. I'll have to confrim that, though. Or somebody else could.

- A person being held does not need to be made public, if a judge deems that information could pose a threat. (Another thing that goes against the constitution)

Then there's a lot of other things about how the FBI and CIA communicate information, accountability to congress, and changes in how they tap phone and internet communication. There were a few things there that were very noteworthy, but I can't remember what they were.

Just a progress report. I'll go back and get the exact details sometime this week. My problem is that I don't have much time at home, and when I have break between classes at school, the computers won't let me create a notepad.

[fr33k]

Just wanted to say thanks to Radu for all the research and work you are putting in to your posts. It's appreciated by me at least.

God Bless,

Fr33k

[Radu]

Just wanted to say thanks to Radu for all the research and work you are putting in to your posts. It's appreciated by me at least.

God Bless,

Fr33kThank you very much, fr33k! I really appreciate that!

I used to belong to a forum that would always get into intellectual conversations (in a light-hearted manner). I learned a lot because people would put research into their posts. Ever since then, I've always loved going deep into my posts. I would love to have more friendly debates, but everybody here is too nice. ;)

[Justawoman]

- The FBI or CIA can demand information about a costumer from any business or library, with permission from a judge (ie: a warrant).


Okay this one doesn't bother me. Why? I, or any other normal citizen, will not go around making suspicious purchases that might point to the fact I was planning on making a bomb. I am sure not going to have an interest in checking out books that help me learn how or go visit websites that point toward militant/terroristic interests.

I am glad they look at this kind of traffic.

Plus one needs to remember that a terrorist does not care about you or your civil liberties. Their main concern is disrupting our way of life and by any means possible.

It use to mean something, to become an American. It meant a better way of life for you and your present day family, plus future generations. I suspect alot of new citizens became Americans under false pretenses. They had no love for this country and only sought citizenship to help foster sleeper cells. Time will tell on that one. So we are fighting a new and more dangerous war than the ones in the past. We have an enemy that is not so visible. I can see why new tactics are needed to make this country secure again.

[Alec]

Most of that so far requires a judge, so what is the issue?