The Final Count Monday?

[jamesglewisf]

Wow!In a unanimous decision tonight, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that amended vote counts from the ongoing hand recounts in three counties must be counted in the state's final presidential vote tally, and must be in by 9 a.m. EST next Monday at the latest.That is a huge ruling!

Well, unless there are more court challenges, it looks like we might know who the president is sometime Monday.

I wonder if Gore still comes up short if he will file some other lawsuit or court case. I wonder if Gore overcomes Bush's lead if Bush will file some other lawsuit or court case. Let's hope that neither does.

[jamesglewisf]

Isn't this going to be a stinky Thanksgiving holiday for those vote counters? Granted, they are participating in a historical election, but it would still be a bummer.

I'm surprised they stopped at 8PM today. I would think they would be working as many hours as possible to get the thing done before the deadline.

[TWTCommish]

I'm very dissapointed with this ruling. Unamiously? Ouch - that's bad.

Even worse? I saw them questioning some of the Bush supporters/lawyers, and it was pitiful. Not only did some of the judges ask rather dumb, simple, and just all-around stupid questions, but they basically argued with the Bush people - they didn't ask questions to gather info, they challenged them and bickered with them.

It was a poor display of our legal system - those judges, from that display at least, were highly un-honorable.

[blinc]

Hasn't there been enough Gore bashing in a handful of threads already? How come it seems that anything that is done that "helps" Gore, is stupid or shameful... is Bush an innocent in all of this mess? You've got to remember that some of us prefer Gore over Bush.

In all honesty... because of the position... perhaps the most powerful position in the world, wouldn't you want a person to be willing to fight for what he thought was right? I would expect no less from Bush if the positions were reversed. Take out the personal political views from this and look at the issue itself... people who voted have the right to have their votes count. It has been standard practice for YEARS that if an election was close, there would be a hand count to settle the matter. Why was this action challendged in the first place?

[TWTCommish]

Why? Because they did not meet the LEGAL deadline. Gore's schtick has been all-about the people's will and following the law - but now he wanted these judges to overrule something for him.

This stupid/shameful thing is not about Gore - would I be so adamant if things were reversed? No. That doesn't change the fact, however, that the judges obviously had their minds made up long in advance - which is wrong.

[blinc]

You misunderstood the question... I meant, why did Bush file an injunction to halt the hand recount immediately after the election. Not that it matters now, just saying I've seen enough Gore bashing to last a life time. Sick of it, sick of this whole mess.

[TWTCommish]

He filed it because it's unfair to re-count the ballots in Pro-Gore counties only, that's why - seems like a good reason to me. Not only that, but I think machine counting is more accurate.

Now, before someone says "But Bush said in Texas that hand-counting is preferable," let me note that Texas law also only allows for one recount.

Bottom line: a recount is all well and good, but recount the whole thing - not just Pro-Gore counties.

[jamesglewisf]

I'm so tired of all of this.GOP presidential candidate George W. Bush has approved an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court over the recount in Florida, claiming the Florida Supreme Court overstepped its bounds, sources tell CNN.I want Bush to win, but I'm tired of the court actions. I wish he would have just left it alone.

[jamesglewisf]

I'm moving this thread to The Great Debate. Looks like it is turning into a complain about the other side thread.

[blinc]

You didn't have to move it... I'm tired to death of "listening" to this junk. So, I'm outta here! {toothy}
It's everywhere... TV, Radio, Newspapers, FORUMS! AAAIIIEEEE!!

[jamesglewisf]

According to www.cnn.com, this might not end Monday. First Bush, then Gore. Enough already!
After the Florida Supreme Court refused to order Miami-Dade County to resume their hand recount, Al Gore's campaign announced today it would contest the certified results from that county, making it more likely that Florida's approaching deadline for amended vote counts would not settle the presidential race.

[jamesglewisf]

http://foxnews.com/election_night/112300/trail.sml
The battle for Florida's electoral votes took no Thanksgiving break Thursday, as a spokesman for the Democratic Party told reporters that Vice President Al Gore would not concede Monday, even if Gov. George W. Bush were to be declared the winner of the certified vote.
Does someone have to concede for the other person to win? Or does conceding mean we just don't have to wait for the Electoral College to make it official? Or does it even mean anything at all?Asked if that meant that Gore would not concede even if he lags in votes on Monday, Gore campaign spokeswoman Jenny Backus said that was correct.

"We want a full, fair and accurate count, and the only way left to do that is to file a contest for Miami-Dade," she said.

[TTP]

This whole thing just really irks me. It took the rest of the U.S. how many days to vote and have everything said and done? This is such a joke, if you're going to revote, do it! Get it over with! This seems like a soap opera to me, full of comercials and drama...
I'm really really really tired of this.

[TWTCommish]

They're not going to revote - and let's be thankful for it! If you think this is a mess now, you'd be begging to go back to it after a revote.

[PaulGoodman]

First of all, it will never end!!!!!!!! But i was happy with the ruling. All judges were also appointed by democratic governors.

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.cnn.com The unsettled presidential election is now headed for the highest court in the land. The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to hear the Republican challenge to the Florida Supreme Court's ruling allowing "selective" recounts to be included in the final vote tally. Oral arguments are set for next Friday.Oral arguments won't be heard until Friday, December 1, 2000 (one week).

Bummer.

[jamesglewisf]

I'm really surprised they decided to hear it at all. It thought they would declare it a states issue and ignore it.

[TWTCommish]

Recount continues - it's so sad to see these people holding ballots up, to the side, comparing them, showing them to others - WE NEED ELECTRONIC VOTING! :)

[Military Mom]

We were watching MSNBC tonight. Looks like there were three people counting the so called 'dimpled' ballots in that county (who knows which one). The first guy (bald, middle aged) looked very closely at each ballot, delared what he thought the answer was then passed it to his right. The guy on the right (mid 20s - early 30s in a blue shirt) studied each ballot and tended to agree with the first guy. He then passed it on to some woman with steel grey hair who quickly glanced then declared nearly EVERY ballot passed to her as a Gore Vote. Meanwhile, she was basically jagging around, socializing with others there, rolling her eyes at the first 2 guys, etc. I was not positively impressed by her demeanor. I'm very glad the other two people were there to balance her seemingly biased BS out.

The folks doing the count are so tired they are slap-happy. But I hope they know that they are helping history in the making. They are working hard and long.

Most inflammatory, however, is the callous decision NOT to count overseas votes(which, consequenentally are nostly military and thewrefore mostly republican) on technicalities such as illegible Post-Mark dates, etc etc ad nauseum. However, we are staring at stupid dimpled ballots with big maginfying glasses, trying to make sure that no Democratic vote is left unturned.

How about they study the dimples in my butt?

Ok, uncalled for, but really folks. There is such a thing as losing gracefully. Al Gore is unable to do that. What the hell kind of president will someone like that make??? You know, as soon as he gives this silliness up, maybe he can spend more time on trying to invent a new internet!

If he wins, get ready folks for another 4 years of Clinton Administration woes, irresponsibility and malarkey.

mm

[jamesglewisf]

CNN Reports-- (http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/26/presidential.election/index.html)
Florida's predominantly Democratic county of Palm Beach today sent a letter to Florida's secretary of state asking for an extension of a state Supreme Court deadline for final vote tallies. That deadline, 5 p.m. EST, is not enough time to finish the Palm Beach recount, says canvassing board chairman Judge Charles Burton, who wants the deadline extended to 9 a.m. EST Monday.I can't see how this would possibly happen. She wanted it to be over last Tuesday. She would have already certified the election if the Florida State Supreme Court had not extended it till today.

[jamesglewisf]

Fox News is reporting that she will not extend the deadline. The reporters seem to agree with her that she has no basis for extending the 5PM deadline set by the Florida State Supreme Court.

[jamesglewisf]

Fox News thinks the Palm Beach County board will turn in their answer but continue to count. Fox also says that at the current rate, there is almost no way that Gore could overcome the deficit even if all of the Palm Beach votes were counted.

This is really pretty interesting. I wonder if Fox, CBS, ABC, NBC, and CNN will declare a winner. I doubt it. They seem to be saying that Bush has the upper hand with the Supreme Court, that if the SC was going to support the FL SC, they would have just rejected the appeal.

I am so used to hearing most things go in Gore's favor that today's news has been very interesting.

I wonder when we will finally know. This is very interesting.

[jamesglewisf]

It looks like Bush will probably be certified the winner in Florida at 5PM, and then Gore has the right to contest it. I assume he will since they both seem to contest everything.

[jamesglewisf]

Fox has been reporting an unofficial Bush lead of 418 votes, but they just changed it to 454. They must be counting some absentee ballots somewhere. I wonder what the deal is.

[jamesglewisf]

Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris just certified the Florida election. Final margin of victory 537 votes. Bush has won at this point.

[TWTCommish]

Gore will surely contest the results. The thing is that with this certification, I think the American people will be thinking, for the most part "Bush is President" - and because of this it'll be harder to rally support on the subject.

Been saying it for awhile: Bush has it. I'd be amazed if it went the other way. Who wants to be elected President after contesting results and a few lawsuits? That's the worst way to get in.

[Karenluvs6]

YES...it is so over.
I am so glad that this mess is almost all over!
I hope they don't cut into my shows this afternoon to broadcast this 'officially' .

[RoadRunner]

ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/poll001127.html) reports:
Sixty percent in an ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll say Al Gore should concede the election and let Bush become president. Just 35 percent say Gore instead should ask the courts to review Florida’s vote count, as his lawyers have indicated he will do.

Americans continue to divide evenly on which man they prefer to see take office. The difference is that 26 percent of Gore’s own supporters want him to give up the fight. Ninety-two percent of Bush’s supporters, naturally, also want Gore to concede. That is interesting. I never would have guessed that one.

[Karenluvs6]

well I for one, am not a supporter of Bush....BUT, I think Al should stop this madness and give up too.
This whole thing has gotten way out of hand.
It is obvious to everyone, that Bush has won the election....just let it go.

[RoadRunner]

Saw this in the USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/) todayText of question: Whom do you consider the real winner of the election in Florida: Al Gore (or) George W. Bush, or are you unsure?

51% Bush
15% Gore
32% Unsure
02% No OpinionThat's interesting to me. I would have thought the Gore support would have been a little bit stronger. In a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken before the vice president's televised address to the nation Monday night, a clear 56% majority of Americans said they want Gore to concede the election to Texas Gov. George W. Bush. In an earlier survey completed Nov. 19, opinion on whether Gore should surrender was evenly split, 46%-46%.

The turn against Gore in the poll taken Sunday and Monday was based on surging sentiment that the post-campaign campaigning has gone on too long. Nearly two-thirds of the poll's respondents, 62%, indicated that their patience has run out. A week ago, 51% said they were willing to wait a while longer.

[RoadRunner]

Wow, the Washington Times (http://washingtontimes.com/national/default-20001128225142.htm) said: An estimated 180,000 votes were dismissed in Florida — out of 6.1 million votes cast — because of improper voting procedures.

However, more than 2 million ballots were tossed out in all 50 states and also will not be counted, said Curtis Gans, director of the Committee for the Study of the American Electorate.

Mr. Gans estimates that between 1 percent and 1.8 percent of votes cast — or 2.1 million to 2.8 million ballots — were eliminated nationally.It is interesting to think about what might have been different if people had cast their votes correctly. It might have been a landslide, or it might have been just as close. Who knows?

[TWTCommish]

Interesting point - I wonder what would have happened if Bush had won the popular vote from that - would we still hear Bill Daly crowing about the "will of the people"? :D

[blinc]

I can't help but think if Bush had won the popular vote things would not have went this far. Since Gore DID win the election in terms of actual citizen votes, not the electorial votes, I think more leeway has been granted by the courts regarding the recount issues.

I'd totally agree with you that Bush should win, IF there hadn't been interference created by the STAGED demonstrations at the Miami-Dade counting center and in the attempts by the Bush campaign to halt/slow down the hand recounts since DAY ONE! It really sickens me, that any party would go so far as to bus people in, in order to get a recount stopped. It worked... the deadlines were missed for recounts thanks to the center being closed down. If Bush hadn't filed all the restraining/halt orders to begin with, I'd totally be on his side. It bothers me that he's been so active in stopping the recounts. In many cases, it was the individual Florida counties that decided to do a recount, and was NOT Gore who asked for the recounts. If Bush expects the votes to count in his favor, then perhaps he shouldn't have intereferd in the first place with the Florida Counties who did decide to recount. It bothers me that he has repeatedly stopped or attempted to stop the recounts. While waiting for the courts to say go ahead and restart the counting, precious days were lost towards the deadline. I think it's dirty tactics on both sides, but mostly, in my own opinion, it's been Bush that has done the most damage.

People are sick of it, they have no patience... it's a shame that this can't be resolved better... I have the feeling no matter who wins, that it's caused a tremendous rift in the people. People are so vehemnt on this matter... there is no middle ground it would appear. No matter who wins, I think about half the people of the US are going to feel the wrong man is president. There's a great opportunity for a lot of damage to be done here, let's hope this doesn't cause some major problems... I think it could.

[blinc]

Whew. AFter typing all that my hand is cramped up big time... looks like a claw/crab hand. think it's time to go scare the neighborhood kids, AAAAHHH! Run! It's the crab lady!! {toothy}

[TWTCommish]

I'll have to disagree - those recounts were frivelous and unfair, so of course he stopped them! It was a shame he had to stoop to Gore's level temporarily to do so, but he had to.

Recounting in pro-Dem counties specifially looking for dimpled ballots is not fair at all.

And what about the military ballots?

1 - They're wrong, the law, in most cases, does not require a post mark.
2 - Even if it did, they'd be hypocrites - what happened to this "voter intent" bull?

[blinc]

Personally, I think counting the dimpled ballots are going too far. Although it does seem a shame that the machines can't record peoples votes correctly... we definitely need a better process. I think the military votes SHOULD be counted and as far as I know, last week it was decided they would be counted as long as they were signed and the vote ballot itself was dated, as was required. have you heard differently?

I'll have to disagree with you. {toothy} Once again, I am speaking of what happend directly after the election, when one county decided to do a hand recount, as was called for in their election laws. I don't consider their very own election procedures "frivilous or unfair". Bush didn't stop the hand recounts... his requests to halt them were not granted by the courts. The only thing he did do was succeed in getting them temporarily halted while awaiting the court hearings... then the counting continued. It was the injunctions he filed that stopped some counties from being able to complete their hand recounts by the deadlilne. Now that, I personally think is wrong. Once the courts decided that the counts were legal and followed the individual counties election procedures, then to me I think the fair thing would have been to add on the days that the counties were unable to count, onto the deadline. Seems fair.

Personally, I won't stoop to name calling or trying to make people feel bad by saying demeaning things about some one or some idea they support. It does nothing to help in trying to get my point across. Plus, it doesn't do anything but create hard feelings. I respect anyone's right to have a different opinion from my own. totally. I would expect the same respect from anyone else. I do wish we could try to refrain from the name calling/bashing since it does nothing to stimulate a good debate... it only makes it harder to discuss an issue intelligently and somewhat calmly.

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.cnn.com reports:TALLAHASSEE, Florida (CNN) -- A state judge Tuesday evening denied an emergency request from the campaign of Democrat Al Gore to immediately count roughly 10,000 ballots in Miami-Dade County and another 3,300 in Palm Beach County.

But Leon County Circuit Judge N. Sanders Sauls scheduled a hearing for Saturday at 9 a.m. to further consider Gore's challenge to the presidential results in those counties, as well as Nassau County.That can't be good for Gore. He sure didn't get the timetable he wanted.

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.cnn.com reports:Gore's legal team turned to Florida's First District Court of Appeals to secure permission to file "an original petition" with the state Supreme Court asking it to order the immediate counting of the disputed ballots. The appellate court failed to respond before the close of business Wednesday. A short time later, the state high court also closed for the day. Still not looking good for Gore. I guess we'll hear something tomorrow.

[Karenluvs6]

I hope you're right Jim.
I am sick to death of this whole mess.
Gore is trying all kinds of stuff, isn't he?
he was on the news this morning talking more mess and comparing the election situation to something, had nothing to do with it, but he was basically trying to justify his reasoning for recounts and all that great and wonderful stuff. He just sounded so ridiculous and desperate...He keeps repeating the same stuff over and over again.
He is nuts!!!
I do not care much for GWB, but right now....I can't wait for him to take office.

[RoadRunner]

Here is the schedule for today, at this minute anyhow:

US Supreme Court - Reply briefs are due from both campaigns on the Bush appeal of Florida Supreme Court case.

Florida Supreme Court - Expected to rule on accepting Palm Beach County butterfly ballot case.

Florida Supreme Court - We may hear from them on whether they will force the Circuit Court in Leon County to go ahead and start counting.

Circuit Court in Leon County - Hearing in Gore Contest on standards for possible ballot recount.

[RoadRunner]

Is anybody watching the OJ-like coverage of the Ryder truck carrying the votes to the Circuit Court?

[RoadRunner]

http://www.foxnews.com reporting:Al Gore's attorneys on Thursday asked the U.S. Supreme Court to block the Republican-controlled Florida Legislature from appointing its own slate of presidential electors, which would likely seal George W. Bush's win in the Electoral College.

[RoadRunner]

Gore said in an interview last night that the fight could last till December 18 according to http://www.washingtontimes.com ``I think this is going to be over with by the middle of December,'' Gore told ABC News.

But when pressed for a specific end date, Gore replied: ``Well, you know, under the law, December 18 is the date when the Electoral College meets. And I'm just not going to get into the details. I'm going to leave that to the experts.'' I think he is bluffing. I'm sure they will fight whatever happens with the electoral college. We probably won't know anything until January.

[RoadRunner]

Man, it's 5:20PM Florida and DC time, and still no word. However nuts this is making me, it must be killing Gore and Bush.

[jamesglewisf]

I kept waiting to hear something on Gore's two deals yesterday, and nothing came. He asked the Florida Supreme Court to force that District Court judge to start counting, and he asked the US Supreme Court to block the Florida Legislature from appointing it's electoral college members.

I don't see how he could possibly get his way on the last one. Article II of the US consititution says that state legislatures appoint electoral college members. That sounds pretty cut and dry. It would be pretty gutsy though of Florida to do that. The only way I see them doing it is if Florida hasn't been resolved by the deadline for the electoral college. Then they would have to or their 25 electoral college votes wouldn't count.

[RoadRunner]

The Florida Legislature's GOP leaders are citing the Electoral Count Act of 1887 and the U.S. Supreme Court's McPherson decision in 1892, which affirmed that law, saying the appointment of electors is "absolutely and wholly with the legislatures of the several states ... [and] there is no doubt of the right of the legislature to resume the power at any time."

[Debby]

I just read this whole four page thread for the first time tonight, and I must say...Military Mom...your comment about why don't they just count the dimples in your butt, had me laughing so hard I nearly peed my pants! (sorry thats not very lady like) but it was so funny!! I also am sick to death of this election, and recount thing...I don't want to step on any toes here (blinc) because I like you all so much....but why doesn't Gore just admit defeat and concide? This is not doing our country any good at all.

[blinc]

??ME?? {toothy} I'm tickled to death that at least someone has found some humor in the situation. I'm laughing along with ya. Think I got so wrapped up in the debate I failed to see MM's good crack at the whole mess. {toothy} Thank goodness, there's humor in things if someone looks hard enough. Thanks MM and Debby!

[Debby]

My dad used to have an old saying he always said, guess it was from the old days, as Ive never heard anyone else say it...

It's no laughing matter, but no matter if you laugh!

How true in this situation! We do need to find some humer in it, to keep from going crazy! :)

[theyeti]

This is my first time in this section, but i'm not going to give an opinion - rather, i'll quote some famous authors on the situation:

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:
Listen, my children, don't dare ignore, The midnight actions of Bush and Gore In early November, the year ought-ought, Hard to believe the mess they wrought. Two billion bucks of campaign bounty All came down to Palm Beach County. What result could have been horrider Than the situation we found in Florider?

Edward Lear:
There once was a U.S. election
That called for some expert detection-
How thousands of pollers
Could become double-holers
And this should be no cause for objection.

Edgar Allen Poe:
Once upon a campaign dreary,
one which left us weak and weary
O'er many a quaint and curious promise of political lore
While we nodded, nearly napping,
suddenly there came a yapping,
As of some votes overlapping,
energy-zapping to the core.
"'Tis a mess here," we all muttered, as the network anchors stuttered, Stuttered over Bush and Gore.
Could there be another election with such a case of misdirection, one with such a weak selection, yet fraught with tension to the core? Quoth the ravers, "Nevermore."

[blinc]

Debby I love that saying your dad had. That's just a wonderful outlook for life in general. :)

Theyeti, I used to love Poe when I was younger... that verse just had me in stitches over here. {toothy}

[jamesglewisf]

From http://www.abcnews.com In a unanimous ruling that comes as a blow to Al Gore’s efforts to win the White House, the U.S. Supreme Court today overturned a Florida ruling that allowed hand-recounted ballots into the state’s final vote tally.

The high court’s decision comes as a Florida state judge was about to rule on Gore’s request for new recounts, which the vice president believes would erase George W. Bush’s slim lead in the state’s certified presidential vote count. Judge N. Sanders Sauls had been expected to release his decision this afternoon, but a spokeswoman announced it was now“on hold” in light of the Supreme Court ruling.
...
But leaving a window open for reconsideration of the issue at a later date, the Supreme Court gave the Florida high court the opportunity to explain where it derived the authority to extend the deadline for vote counting.Wow! I didn't expect that for some reason. I wish the turkeys had asked the Florida Supreme Court for their reason during the testimony. Now we get to wait again.

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.cnn.com says In remanding the case to the Florida court, the U.S. Supreme Court also declined to rule on the issues presented in the case - that the Florida justices violated the U.S. Constitution and federal election laws.

"After reviewing the opinion of the Florida Supreme Court, we find 'that there is considerable uncertainty as to the precise grounds for the decision,'" the justices wrote, citing language from a 1940 high court decision. "This is sufficient reason for us to decline at this time to review the federal questions asserted to be present."

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.foxnews.com reports Text of a decision Monday by the U.S. Supreme Court on the Florida election:

The Supreme Court of the State of Florida interpreted its elections statutes in proceedings brought to require manual recounts of ballots, and the certification of the recount results, for votes cast in the quadrennial Presidential election held on November 7, 2000. Governor George W. Bush, Republican candidate for the Presidency, filed a petition for certiorari to review the Florida Supreme Court decision. We granted certiorari on two of the questions presented by petitioner: whether the decision of the Florida Supreme Court, by effectively changing the State s elector appointment procedures after election day, violated the Due Process Clause or 3 U. S. C. 5, and whether the decision of that court changed the manner in which the State's electors are to be selected, in violation of the legislature s power to designate the manner for selection under Art. II, 1, cl. 2 of the United States Constitution. 531 U.S. (2000).

On November 8, 2000, the day following the Presidential election, the Florida Division of Elections reported that Governor Bush had received 2,909,135 votes, and respondent Democrat Vice President Albert Gore, Jr., had received 2,907,351, a margin of 1,784 in Governor Bush's favor. Under Fla. Stat. 102.141(4) (2000), because the margin of victory was equal to or less than one-half of one percent of the votes cast, an automatic machine recount occurred. The recount resulted in a much smaller margin of victory for Governor Bush. Vice President Gore then exercised his statutory right to submit written requests for manual recounts to the canvassing board of any county. See 102.166. He requested recounts in four counties: Volusia, Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade. The parties urged conflicting interpretations of the Florida Election Code respecting the authority of the canvassing boards, the Secretary of State (hereinafter Secretary), and the Elections Canvassing Commission.

On November 14, in an action brought by Volusia County, and joined by the Palm Beach County Canvassing Board, Vice President Gore, and the Florida Democratic Party, the Florida Circuit Court ruled that the statutory 7-day deadline was mandatory, but that the Volusia board could amend its returns at a later date. The court further ruled that the Secretary, after "considering all attendant facts and circumstances," App. to Pet. for Cert. 49a, could exercise her discretion in deciding whether to include the late amended returns in the statewide certification. The Secretary responded by issuing a set of criteria by which she would decide whether to allow a late filing. The Secretary ordered that, by 2 p.m. the following day, November 15, any county desiring to forward late returns submit a written statement of the facts and circumstances justifying a later filing. Four counties submitted statements and, after reviewing the submissions, the Secretary determined that none justified an extension of the filing deadline. On November 16, the Florida Democratic Party and Vice President Gore filed an emergency motion in the state court, arguing that the Secretary had acted arbitrarily and in contempt of the court s earlier ruling.

The following day, the court denied the motion, ruling that the Secretary had not acted arbitrarily and had exercised her discretion in a reasonable manner consistent with the court's earlier ruling. The Democratic Party and Vice President Gore appealed to the First District Court of Appeal, which certified the matter to the Florida Supreme Court. That court accepted jurisdiction and sua sponte entered an order enjoining the Secretary and the Elections Canvassing Commission from finally certifying the results of the election and declaring a winner until further order of that court. The Supreme Court, with the expedition requisite for the controversy, issued its decision on November 21. Palm Beach County Canvassing Bd. v. Harris, Nos. SC002346, SC002348, and SC002349 (Nov. 21, 2000), App. to Pet. for Cert. 1a.

As the court saw the matter, there were two principal questions: whether a discrepancy between an original machine return and a sample manual recount resulting from the way a ballot has been marked or punched is an "error in vote tabulation" justifying a full manual recount; and how to reconcile what it spoke of as two conflicts in Florida s election laws: (a) between the time frame for conducting a manual recount under Fla. Stat. 102.166 (2000) and the time frame for submitting county returns under 102.111 and 102.112, and (b) between 102.111, which provides that the Secretary "shall ...ignor(e)" late election returns, and 102.112, which provides that she "may ...ignor(e)" such returns. With regard to the first issue, the court held that, under the plain text of the statute, a discrepancy between a sample manual recount and machine returns due to the way in which a ballot was punched or marked did constitute an "error in vote tabulation" sufficient to trigger the statutory provisions for a full manual recount.

With regard to the second issue, the court held that the "shall ...ignor(e)" provision of 102.111 conflicts with the "may ...ignor(e)" provision of 102.112, and that the "may . . . ignor(e)" provision controlled. The court turned to the questions whether and when the Secretary may ignore late manual recounts. The court relied in part upon the right to vote set forth in the Declaration of Rights of the Florida Constitution in concluding that late manual recounts could be rejected only under limited circumstances. The court then stated: "(B)ecause of our reluctance to rewrite the Florida Election Code, we conclude that we must invoke the equitable powers of this Court to fashion a remedy ...." App. to Pet. for Cert. 37a.

The court thus imposed a deadline of November 26, at 5 p.m., for a return of ballot counts. The 7-day deadline of 102.111, assuming it would have applied, was effectively extended by 12 days. The court further directed the Secretary to accept manual counts submitted prior to that deadline. As a general rule, this Court defers to a state court s interpretation of a state statute. But in the case of a law enacted by a state legislature applicable not only to elections to state offices, but also to the selection of Presidential electors, the legislature is not acting solely under the authority given it by the people of the State, but by virtue of a direct grant of authority made under Art. II, 1, cl. 2, of the United States Constitution.

That provision reads: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress . . . ." Although we did not address the same question petitioner raises here, in McPherson v. Blacker, 146 U. S. 1, 25 (1892), we said: "Art. II, 1, cl. 2 does not read that the people or the citizens shall appoint, but that each State shall; and if the words in such manner as the legislature thereof may direct, had been omitted, it would seem that the legislative power of appointment could not have been successfully questioned in the absence of any provision in the state constitution in that regard.

Hence the insertion of those words, while operating as a limitation upon the State in respect of any attempt to circumscribe the legislative power, cannot be held to operate as a limitation on that power itself." There are expressions in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Florida that may be read to indicate that it construed the Florida Election Code without regard to the extent to which the Florida Constitution could, consistent with Art. II, 1, cl. 2, "circumscribe the legislative power." The opinion states, for example, that "(t)o the extent that the Legislature may enact laws regulating the electoral process, those laws are valid only if they impose no unreasonable or unnecessary restraints on the right of suffrage" guaranteed by the state constitution. App. to Pet. for Cert. 30a. The opinion also states that "(b)ecause election laws are intended to facilitate the right of suffrage, such laws must be liberally construed in favor of the citizens right to vote ..." Ibid.

In addition, 3 U. S. C. 5 provides in pertinent part: "If any State shall have provided, by laws enacted prior to the day fixed for the appointment of the electors, for its final determination of any controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, by judicial or other methods or procedures, and such determination shall have been made at least six days before the time fixed for the meeting of the electors, such determination made pursuant to such law so existing on said day, and made at least six days prior to said time of meeting of the electors, shall be conclusive, and shall govern in the counting of the electoral votes as provided in the Constitution, and as hereinafter regulated, so far as the ascertainment of the electors appointed by such State is concerned."

The parties before us agree that whatever else may be the effect of this section, it creates a "safe harbor" for a State insofar as congressional consideration of its electoral votes is concerned. If the state legislature has provided for final determination of contests or controversies by a law made prior to election day, that determination shall be conclusive if made at least six days prior to said time of meeting of the electors. The Florida Supreme Court cited 3 U. S. C. 110 in a footnote of its opinion, App. to Pet. for Cert. 32a, n. 55, but did not discuss 5. Since 5 contains a principle of federal law that would assure finality of the State s determination if made pursuant to a state law in effect before the election, a legislative wish to take advantage of the "safe harbor" would counsel against any construction of the Election Code that Congress might deem to be a change in the law.

After reviewing the opinion of the Florida Supreme Court, we find "that there is considerable uncertainty as to the precise grounds for the decision." Minnesota v. National Tea Co., 309 U. S. 551, 555 (1940). This is sufficient reason for us to decline at this time to review the federal questions asserted to be present. See ibid. "It is fundamental that state courts be left free and unfettered by us in interpreting their state constitutions. But it is equally important that ambiguous or obscure adjudications by state courts do not stand as barriers to a determination by this Court of the validity under the federal constitution of state action. Intelligent exercise of our appellate powers compels us to ask for the elimination of the obscurities and ambiguities from the opinions in such cases." Id., at 557.

Specifically, we are unclear as to the extent to which the Florida Supreme Court saw the Florida Constitution as circumscribing the legislature's authority under Art. II, 1, cl. 2. We are also unclear as to the consideration the Florida Supreme Court accorded to 3 U. S. C. 5. The judgment of the Supreme Court of Florida is therefore vacated, and the case is remanded for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion.

It is so ordered.

[jamesglewisf]

Amazing! The Florida Supreme Court gave another victory to Gore! I wonder if the US Supreme Court will tell them, "No way!" again. I really thought this thing might be close to over today when the first two courts ruled in favor of Bush.

One thing I haven't been able to find anywhere is how the FL Supreme Court felt they could take into account the recounts that were finished after their extended deadline when the US Supreme Court said they never should have extended the deadline in the first place. I'm really confused.

Maybe some of the talking heads on CNN or Fox News will explain it.

[jamesglewisf]

It's interesting that they wanted the recounts to occur in every county. That makes sense if you are going to recount at all.

I wonder what the FL Supreme Court will say about the appeals on the Seminole and Martin counties' absentee ballots cases.

[jamesglewisf]

Looks like the Supreme Court gave Bush his stay. I thought the text of its decision was interesting enough to post. This is from http://www.foxnews.com Text of the order issued Saturday by the U.S. Supreme Court to stop manual recounts in Florida. Accompanying the order, which came by a 5-4 vote, are statements by Justice Antonin Scalia, who voted with the majority, and Justice John Paul Stevens, who dissented.


The application for stay presented to Justice Kennedy and by him referred to the Court is granted, and it is ordered that the mandate of the Florida Supreme Court, case No. SC00-2431, is hereby stayed pending further order of the court. In addition, the application for stay is treated as a petition for a writ of certiorari, and the petition for a writ of certiorari is granted. The briefs of the parties, not to exceed 50 pages, are to be filed with the Clerk and served upon opposing counsel on or before 4 p.m. Sunday, December 10, 2000. Rule 29.2 is suspended in this case. Briefs may be filed in compliance with Rule 33.2 to be replaced as soon as possible with briefs prepared in compliance with Rule 33.1. The case is set for oral argument on Monday, December 11, 2000, at 11 a.m., and a total of 1 1/2 hours is allotted for oral argument.


Justice Scalia, concurring:

Though it is not customary for the Court to issue an opinion in connection with its grant of a stay, I believe a brief response is necessary to Justice Stevens's dissent. I will not address the merits of the case, since they will shortly be before us in the petition for certiorari that we have granted. It suffices to say that the issuance of the stay suggests that a majority of the court, while not deciding the issues presented, believe that the petitioner has a substantial probability of success.

On the question of irreparable harm, however, a few words are appropriate. The issue is not, as the dissent puts it, whether "counting every legally cast vote can constitute irreparable harm." One of the principal issues in the appeal we have accepted is precisely whether the votes that have been ordered to be counted are, under a reasonable interpretation of Florida law, "legally cast votes." The counting of votes that are of questionable legality does in my view threaten irreparable harm to petitioner, and to the country, by casting a cloud upon what he claims to be the legitimacy of his election. Count first, and rule upon legality afterwards, is not a recipe for producing election results that have the public acceptance democratic stability requires. Another issue in the case, moreover, is the propriety, indeed the constitutionality, of letting the standard for determination of voters intent — dimpled chads, hanging chads, etc., vary from county to county, as the Florida Supreme Court opinion, as interpreted by the Circuit Court, permits. If petitioner is correct that counting in this fashion is unlawful, permitting the count to proceed on that erroneous basis will prevent an accurate recount from being conducted on a proper basis later, since it is generally agreed that each manual recount produces a degradation of the ballots, which renders a subsequent recount inaccurate.

For these reasons I have joined the Courts issuance of stay, with a highly accelerated timetable for resolving this case on the merits.


Justice Stevens, dissenting:

To stop the counting of legal votes, the majority today departs from three venerable rules of judicial restraint that have guided the Court throughout its history. On questions of state law, we have consistently respected the opinions of the highest courts of the States. On questions whose resolution is committed at least in large measure to another branch of the Federal Government, we have construed our own jurisdiction narrowly and exercised it cautiously. On federal constitutional questions that were not fairly presented to the court whose judgment is being reviewed, we have prudently declined to express an opinion. The majority has acted unwisely.

Time does not permit a full discussion of the merits. It is clear, however, that a stay should not be granted unless an applicant makes a substantial showing of a likelihood of irreparable harm. In this case, applicants have failed to carry that heavy burden. Counting every legally cast vote cannot constitute irreparable harm. On the other hand, there is a danger that a stay may cause irreparable harm to the respondents and, more importantly, the public at large because of the risk that "the entry of the stay would be tantamount to a decision on the merits in favor of the applicants." National Socialist Party of America v. Skokie, 434 U. S. 1327, 1328 (1977) (STEVENS, J., in chambers). Preventing the re-count from being completed will inevitably cast a cloud on the legitimacy of the election.

It is certainly not clear that the Florida decision violated federal law. The Florida Code provides elaborate procedures for ensuring that every eligible voter has a full and fair opportunity to cast a ballot and that every ballot so cast is counted. See, e.g., Fla. Stat. Sections 101.5614(5), 102.166 (2000). In fact, the statutory provision relating to damaged and defective ballots states that "no vote shall be declared invalid or void if there is a clear indication of the intent of the voter as determined by the canvassing board." Fla. Stat. Section 101.5614(5) (2000). In its opinion, the Florida Supreme Court gave weight to that legislative command. Its ruling was consistent with earlier Florida cases that have repeatedly described the interest in correctly ascertaining the will of the voters as paramount. See State ex rel. Chappell v. Martinez, 536 So. 2d 1007 (1998); Boardman v. Esteva, 323 So. 2d 259 (1976); McAlpin v. State ex rel. Avriett, 19 So. 2d 420 (1944); State ex rel. Peacock v. Latham, 169 So. 597, 598 (1936); State ex rel. Carpenter v. Barber, 198 So. 49 (1940). Its ruling also appears to be consistent with the prevailing view in other States. See, e.g., Pullen v. Milligan, —— Ill.2d ——, 561 N. E. 2d 585, 611 (Ill. 1990). As a more fundamental matter, the Florida court s ruling reflects the basic principle, inherent in our Constitution and our democracy, that every legal vote should be counted. See Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U. S. 533, 544555 (1964); cf. Hartke v. Roudebush, 321 F. Supp. 1370, 13781379. (SD Ind. 1970) (STEVENS, J., dissenting); accord Roudebush v. Hartke, 405 U. S. 15 (1972).

Accordingly, I respectfully dissent.

[jamesglewisf]

This is so cool to me--not how they ruled, but the fact that the Supreme Court of the United States might make a ruling that decides the proper way to elect this President. If you had told me this was going to happen prior to the election, I would have laughed you out of the forum.

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.foxnews.com reports:On a pair of 6-0 opinions, the justices upheld the rulings of two state judges, both of whom had said the ballots should count even though local election officials had permitted GOP activists to add information to their absentee ballot applications.

The decision closes off one more route to victory for Al Gore, who was not a party to either suit but would have benefited enormously if the appeals were successful. I can't believe the US Supreme Court is dragging this thing out. Grrrrrrrrr.

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.foxnews.com also reported:Florida's Republican-controlled House held a five-hour special session Tuesday to debate and vote on the resolution that could give George W. Bush the state's 25 electoral votes. Republicans hold a 77-43 majority in the House. Two Democrats voted with the GOP. It's interesting that two Democrats voted against Gore.

[blinc]

You know what? I'm beginning to think this is never going to end. Everytime there is a decision by a court, one or the other challenge that decision. Courts overturning other courts... yikes, what a mess!

I think this may be getting close to being over though, what do you think?

Chris, so far, I think had the best idea. If there is going to be a recount, recount ALL the counties. That way, no one could complain that "but votes weren't counted here". It would be one sure way to settle this whole mess, once and for all.

[Karenluvs6]

well now it's finally over!
Bush is our President.....Geesh, I sure hope Gore concedes and let's it go. He really needs to get on with things.
I'm not too comfortable with Bush in office but I think or I hope he will do his very best for our Country.

[jamesglewisf]

I just saw something on the TV about his lawyers considering some kind of appeal in Florida. Grrrrrrrrrr.

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.cnn.com reporting:Democrat Al Gore today ordered his recount committee to cease operations and is planning to deliver a statement to the nation tonight between 8 and 9 p.m. EST. The U.S. Supreme Court yesterday voted 7-2 to overturn a Florida Supreme Court ruling that allowed recounts of disputed votes in the state. Those recounts were crucial to Gore's hopes of overtaking George W. Bush and winning the presidential election.

[Karenluvs6]

Originally posted by jamesglewisf
I just saw something on the TV about his lawyers considering some kind of appeal in Florida. Grrrrrrrrrr.


appeal what?!?!?
what is left, for crying out loud!!!!!

[jamesglewisf]

http://www.foxnews.com says Vice President Al Gore has decided to drop out of the White House race, leaving George W. Bush to become America's 43rd president.

The vice president's campaign chairman William Daley said in a written statement that the vice president has directed his recount committee to suspend activities. And two senior Gore aides told the Associated Press that Gore has decided to withdraw from the race.

Aides said the vice president intended to telephone Bush, probably before his address. Democratic aides were talking with the TV networks about broadcast time.

[jamesglewisf]

Well, it's finally over. Gore conceded, and the networks are now calling Bush the "President Elect."

Finally.

[jamesglewisf]

This is a shocker at http://www.cnn.com WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An overwhelming majority of Americans -- 80 percent -- are prepared to accept Texas Gov. George W. Bush as the legitimate president, according to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll conducted today. This comes on the heels of last night's historic Supreme Court decision effectively ending the thirty-six day presidential election stalemate between Bush and Vice president Al Gore.I would never have guessed 80%. That is overwhelming.

[Karenluvs6]

yes it is overwhelming....ya know, part of the reason that number is so high is because so many Americans just wanted it overwith...I mean, when they were asked their opinion of what is going on....all of those ppl who were so strongly against Bush/Cheney, said that they are tired of all of this, and they just wanted it over...Ppl that are saying, "well, I'm not comfortable with Bush being our president...but Gore needs to give up and get this overwith".....those ppl don't genuinely care about who is president of their country, they just want this all to be over.

[blinc]

What's sad about the way this whole thing turned out is that Bush may never have the whole-hearted support of the American people. When other Presidents have been elected, there was a clear cut "win". With circumstances like these, I'm afraid every time President Bush does something people don't like, there is going to be the feeling that "well, he's not absolutely our president". Does anyone else worry about that?

What about dealings with foreign governments... do you think Bush is going to get the respect others presidents have had in the past? Do you think that because the election turned out the way it did, that other governments may not feel he has the American people behind him?

These are a few concerns I have, what about you? Do these issues concern you? Or do you think life will go on as normal in another couple weeks?

[RoadRunner]

I think life is already back to normal, except for talk-show hosts. I think Bush will do fine. Regardless of the circumstances around the election, he is still the President.

[Debby]

I'm glad it's over, and I'm glad Bush won...(even if he does have beady eyes....LOL)

[Karenluvs6]

it seems to have died out a great deal....thank goodness for that. It took entirely too long.
He will do fine....I hope.