Losing faith?

[blinc]

A long time ago, I used to believe very strongly in God. Somewhere along the way I've stopped believing in a lot of what I was taught in the Baptist church. I still believe very firmly in conducting myself with honor. To try to live my life by a set of morals that don't include lying, stealing, cheating... all the basic, decent rules I think humans should live by. I do believe that what we do in this life will count somehow, and that our spirits will go on. I guess I'm saying I believe that there is a good and an evil to life, and I try to live a "good" life. Do you think if there is a God and heaven, that I'd be doomed to hell for having lost faith in any one way of religion... for not being sure there is a God?

[jamesglewisf]

About 7 or 8 years ago, I was lying on my bed getting ready to pray, and then I asked myself why I was praying. I didn't even know if there really was a God. If there wasn't, why pray? Had I become a Christian because of what I believed or because of what my friends, parents, and family believed?

I decided that this was a pretty important question that needed an answer, so I started looking for one. I read a book by C.S. Lewis called Mere Christianity. Next, I read a book by Josh McDowell called More Than a Carpenter. What I found out was that there was a world of evidence for what I believed. I did not need to have a "blind" faith to believe in God.

If the Bible is true, and I believe that it is, then it is important to know what it says about heaven and hell.

It's important because of what God says in the Bible about us. He says that all people, whether they were born into a Hindu, Jewish, atheist, or Christian families, are sinners. We all mess up. There is not one of us that does not do wrong at some point.

He also says that the penalty for sin is death, and that means spiritual death. It means eternal separation from God. It means hell. The standard for getting into heaven is perfection. Since all people are sinners and none are perfect, we all go to hell.

Here's the dilemma: God loves us and doesn't want any of us to go to hell. But if God is going to be God, He has to be perfectly just as well as perfectly loving. A just God cannot let sinful people into heaven. Sin must be punished. In the same way that a judge cannot wink at murder and let a murder go free, God cannot just wink at our sin and ignore it.

So how does a perfectly loving and perfectly just God resolve this dilemma? He resolves it in the person of Jesus Christ. God's Son became a man in the person of Jesus. He lived the perfect life that none of us can live, and then He paid the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross. To prove that He was 100% God and 100% man, He was raised from the dead, and now reigns in heaven. He suffered and died in our place, but He conquered death and is waiting for us in heaven.

So now, when I stand before God and He asks me why should I let you into My heaven? I'm going to say that is has nothing to do with me. I am a sinnner. But Your Son Jesus already paid the penalty for my sin and purchased a place for me in heaven. I get to go to heaven because of what Jesus did for me, not because of what I did for him.

That's why this is an important question to have answered for yourself.

I have given away over 100 copies of More Than a Carpenter, and I don't know how many of Mere Christianity. If you would like a free copy, just use the feedback form on my main site or the "Contact Us" link at the bottom. Send me your name and address, and I'll mail them to you.

[jamesglewisf]

By the way, this is not only an important question, it is an excellent one. Thanks for asking it.

[jamesglewisf]

Is there any other way to get to heaven? Sure, live the perfect life. Since that is not possible, I'm going with Jesus. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, but through me." That's pretty emphatic. There is only one way.

Some people might say, "Well, I believe Jesus was a good teacher, but I don't believe He was God." C.S. Lewis said in Mere Christianity that this is not possible. Jesus said that He was God. In order to say this, one of three options has to be true:

1. He is a liar - He knows that He is not God and is just deceiving people. If this is true, He is evil, not good.
2. He is a lunatic - He believes that He is God, but He really isn't. This is the equivalent to me saying that I am a banana. Only a crazy person would claim that if it weren't true.
3. He is Lord - He is God, and we need to worship Him as God.

So, He is either Lord, liar or lunatic, but he is not just a good teacher. He is not just a good religious leader.

Both Mere Christianity and More Than a Carpenter delve into the evidence for the fact that He is Lord. They look at the historical, literary, and archaelogical evidence. Josh McDowell, the writer of More Than a Carpenter, says that this is evidence that demands a verdict. He even wrote a book with that title.

[jamesglewisf]

One thing I love about Jesus is that when He looked at a crowd of people, He did not just seem them as a bunch of sinners going to hell. He saw them as sheep without a shepherd. He sees us as lost, scared, hungry, and in need of loving care. He says that He came to seek and to save the lost (Luke 19:10). That's me. He says that He loves us with an everlasting love (Jeremiah 31:3).

The Bible says in Romans 8:35, 38-39: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? ... For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That's how much He loves you and me. That's why He paid the ultimate sacrafice and died for us. To me, that's incredible.

[blinc]

Thank you for your very well thought out answers. It's comforting to know that other people have had questions about their faith. I'll look for the books around here, and if I can't find them, I'll definitely be asking for a copy.

Again, thank you for your thoughts and experience on this most difficult question. :)

[TWTCommish]

Hi blinc,

I've gone through the same thing...being 16, a few years ago I did something similar to James: It occurred to me that my belief stemmed only from being raised in a Christian family...however I found that it didn't take long to re-affirm things, as I just couldn't believe anything else.

You seem to believe in strong morals, so this should help you: without some sort of God, there is no actual right and wrong. Without a God to set what is right and wrong, murder, rape, and theft are all just things that most people CONSIDER to be wrong...they're not "truly" wrong. I think we all know some things are just wrong, and because of that, a God must exist.

Thanks for posting your question here! :)

[sleon]

I think that "doubts" about faith can be looked at another way: as the normal, healthy questions of a mind that is seeking to know the truth.

I did not grow up in a Christian family. Actually, my parents were hippies and agnostics. We didn't go to church, and no one I knew went to church. That was normal for where I grew up. By college I was pretty much an atheist, having decided that the Jesus thing was a crock (seriously, the idea of a PERSON being God!) and that evolutionism was a much better answer than creationism. It didn't help that all of the Christians I met along the way were weak-minded (easy to out-argue!) or just ignorant. (As in my college roommate who told me that her pastor said that there were lost of proofs against evolution, but no, she couldn't remember any of them.)

Then at some point I could feel these spiritual longings...but as a flaming liberal, I still wasn't into Christianity. So paganism was the thing for me, and I became a practicing witch and Goddess-worshipper.

Then my life fell apart, in huge part due to my own sins. And I met my current husband, and he was a Christian!!! But he was the first really smart, honest, wise Christian I had ever met.

Eventually I studied Christianity and Jesus for about a year..."Mere Christianity" was one of the major things that I read. (I also highly recommend "The Case for Christ", by Lee Strobel. It's the thinking person's guide to concrete evidence for faith. But it wasn't published until after I became a Christian.) And eventually I became a Christian, convinced thoroughly in my head AND in my heart. That's essential for me.

All that to say...if you've got doubts, dig into the issues and find out what's really true! There is NOTHING wrong and everything right with analyzing, weighing, and thinking about the facts and the issues. I think that faith is far too important to not be completely thought through. There is nothing in Christianity that says you need to leave your brain behind in order to believe. In fact, God created us with these incredibly powerful minds and He expects us to use them to their full capacity!!!

P.S. blinc...about the "set of morals" idea...if there is no God, then where do we come up with this idea about a set of morals? Is it just a biological urge? (Which would imply that our "morals" have nothing to do with absolute truth. In which case there's nothing real or important about following or not follwing them.) Or are our morals something deeper and more important, in which case there has to be a Someone who laid them out for us? Just a thought...you'll find lots more thoughts like that in Mere Christianity or The Case for Christ.

Happy seeking! :)

[blinc]

Sleeon and TWT, you've raised some excellent points. Thank you so much for sharing your own journeys. I really don't know where the "set of morals" come from... the question you bring up Sleeon, "is it just a of biological urge"? is a wonderful thought provoking point. I always assumed that they came from what I was taught... if that were true however, it wouldn't explain people who were taught similar things, but seem to NOT have the need to do things "right".

You guys have gotten my brain kicked into high gear on this particular point! Thank you for your suggestion of reading, ..."Mere Christianity" and "The Case for Christ", by Lee Strobel.

I've got to get to a large town and find a bookstore!

Once again Sleeon and TWT, thank you for your thoughts on this, you've really added a lot to this discussion with your experiences. :)

[Swimmers]

I'm not losing my faith completely...just what I use to think HAD to be done to be faith.

I have been raised as a Catholic, but many of the things that I had been taught I never really thought that I should believe. I am deeply faithful and I believe in GOD....but these are the things that I think:

1. You don't have to go to church every Sunday or ever in your life to be close to God. God is said to be all around..well if this is the case, then why MUST I go to church. I can praise and worship him where ever.

2. Praying isn't a nesscity...thinking about God out loud or just to yourself is enough...he'll hear you. Follows the "He's all around belief"

3. God loves me for me...not because I go to church every Sunday.

4. Religions being mixed in marriage is NOT bad. A person could be Methodist and another Catholic and it's fine in the eyes are God that they are married and blessed. (this is opposite from what my former church told my parents.)

And well, that's my views...thanks for taking the time to read them! Sorry if they are against yours...please take no offense to them!

[PsalmReader]

Swimmers, I'm so glad you brought this back up. Very interesting reading. And to think, I was headed to bed! lol

Blinc, I'm guessing that these were some of your first posts since Jim didn't know your name and addy and there's no signature. I'm a detective in my spare time! LOL You'd have to have been at another board with me to appreciate the fullness of that joke, but anyway... Cool, actually life changing, question! I too was raised Baptist. Going through college and taking some classes in religion shook me up a little too, but God has always brought me back. :) Blessed me!! So, if I may ask, how's your journey been going in the last couple of months?

Swimmers, I'll try to give you a few answers. :)
Originally posted by Swimmers

1. You don't have to go to church every Sunday or ever in your life to be close to God. God is said to be all around..well if this is the case, then why MUST I go to church. I can praise and worship him where ever.
You sure can! But, going to church gives you an accountability group. It can be the source of strength to carry out your Christian life. Hebrews 10:25 says, "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching."


2. Praying isn't a nesscity...thinking about God out loud or just to yourself is enough...he'll hear you. Follows the "He's all around belief"
Praying IS a necessity, but praying out loud isn't. Praying is talking to God. You are His child (as a Christian), and He wants you to talk to Him (often!). Hey, I know this one from memory! 1Thessalonians 5:17 says, "Pray continually". hehe, that's an EASY one to memorize! You're right; He'll hear you. He knows everything about you--even the number of hairs on your head (see Matthew 10:30). Cool!


3. God loves me for me...not because I go to church every Sunday.
God loves you because He is God the Father. Nothing you do or don't do changes that. Amazing! Accepting His Son saves you and gives you the awesome priviledge of spending eternity in heaven--makes you His child. Then you want to do things to honor Him, not because someone tells you it's the "correct" thing to do.


4. Religions being mixed in marriage is NOT bad. A person could be Methodist and another Catholic and it's fine in the eyes are God that they are married and blessed. (this is opposite from what my former church told my parents.)
I dated a guy who is Catholic when I was in college. He actually ended up marrying another girl who is Baptist. I don't think God minds, but boy can there be problems with how you will raise your kids. Likemindedness is very important in marriage. God forgives all kinds of stuff, but we live with the consequences of things we do here on earth. Did you hear the one about the short girl from KY who married a divorcee with a kid? Well let me tell you that there are things about blended families that I NEVER thought about having to deal with when I got married. Like my little girl crying for her half brother to stay at our house instead of going to his mom's. But that's another post... I don't believe God disapproves of my marriage, but I believe that blended families are mighty hard to deal with at times. BTW, did you catch that I'm the short girl from KY? hehe

I think it's great that we can discuss this stuff and not get feelings hurt! :) Your comments weren't bad Swimmers; at least I don't think they were. I hope nobody considers me a "Bible thumper" now. I can really get into quoting scripture! I'll use any excuse to quote a verse. {toothy} Maybe they'll help or give a little encouragement to someone.

Hey! I think this is my longest post yet! hehe AND, I'm a "Woopdeedoo Charteroo" now! Cool! Go T, Go T!

[Swimmers]

I do want to praise the Lord and I love going to church. The problem with the church that I go to is that they look down upon my family. I've had bad experiences with them!

Example:

I went to get my ashes on Ash Wednesday. I was 14 yrs old. Well, a lady there in charge of the youth portion said that I had to have a parent with me to get the ashes. Well, my mother is Methodist and therefore wouldn't go into a Catholic church. I tried to explain to her the situation...when she found out my mother was Methodist, well I recieved the Cold Shoulder.

Things and actions such as these cause me and other to veer away from church. I loved my old church before I moved. But the bond I have to church has been lost now.

I love the fact that you can quote the Bible. I have a stong interest in religion as well. In World History that was my strongest, and in my opinion, the most interesting area. I use to read the Bible all the time. But I was never able to quote it like you can. I wish that I were able to.

[PsalmReader]

LOL! I wish I could quote it! I keep my Bible right here with me at the computer. :) I'll confess and tell you that on my big two word verse that I've memorized, I messed up and put 2 Thes. first, but wait... there isn't even a 5th chapter in 2 Thes.! Glad I double checked before I posted! {toothy} I do read my Bible a lot. I've learned to listen to what God has to say particularly to me through scripture, not just recite it or read over just to get my time in like I used to do. I wasn't "discipled" (taught to have a relationship) much as a young Christian. I think that is the Baptist churches biggest problem. We are on fire to win people to Christ, but what then?? Oh, I digress, sorry.

Sounds like you are going to a church that's more concerned with "religion" than "relationship". Yuckie. Bummer. :( There are a lot of people like that in the church I grew up in too. But, after I left home, lived in some bigger cities, and attended some different churches... well... life is good! :) God is good! My advice would be to concentrate more on Him than on rituals. (Of course that may be easy for a Baptist to say to a Catholic. I really hope that didn't offend you.) I'll say that I did observe lent when I dated that Catholic guy and even a couple of times after that. It's hard to do when nobody is around to remind you when it starts though! lol Anyway, I learned a lot by giving something up during that time. Good experience. :)

[PsalmReader]

BTW, my biggest worship/ praise experience currently is blasting the song "Great Expectations" by Steven Curtis Chapman on the stereo in my living room! ;) Awesome!

[Swimmers]

I would never be offended!! LOL!! I'm not that type of person! :)

Yeah..I have been trying other churches. The funniest thing is that all of these religions have the same basis. If you study your history you learn that Baptists were formed b/c they believed that I child should be Baptitized when they were old enough to understand. They were once called Ana-Baptists. Lutherans, well Martin Luther wanted to keep the Catholic doctrine but he didn't like the selling of indulgences & we wanted Justification by faith. Calvin believed in predestination...that God would "Will the sinner to sin" (that is a direct quote) He was mostly against the church b/c of the fact that the church was against him and the power the Huguenots were gaining. (french protestants). Eastern Orthodox took many of the ideas of W. Europe into their religion. Many of the religions that are common in America are actually VERY similar. It pains me to see waring religions that are so closely linked!

Creed..crank that up!

[blinc]

PsalmReader... ever since your first post, I've been thinking and thinking of a way to put this without it sounding hokey. I'll try to explain as best I can... hope it makes sense.

For years now, I've not been around people with a strong sense of faith. Good people, don't get me wrong... but just not actively religious people. That being the case, it's been easier and easier to put the matter on the back burner so to speak. Easier to not dwell on the matter sitting there in the deep recesses of my mind. Not being around people who do have faith, in a way strengthed my own doubts... if that makes sense.

Since belonging to this forum, seeing people so openly and happily expressing their beliefs... their love of God. That alone has probably done more for me then any book could. The people here are real... not pages in a book. Their personalities shine through on the forum everyday. They make me laugh at their jokes and goofiness, feel sad with them about their troubles... get my mind reeling with possibilites on some of the topics that are discussed. Yet, there is a strength of purpose and a joy when they speak of their faith. Their belief, their unwavering faith, has opened a part of my heart I feared was long dead. It doesn't mean I've completely lost my doubts... it's just that the possiblity is there for me again.

Hope that makes sense to you... it's so hard to put into words.

:)

[PsalmReader]

Thanks for answering blinc! I was soon going to be wondering if I had offended you. I was trying to be patient though. :) That's a good thing for me to try from time to time. lol (BTW, thanks for your last comments too Swimmers. :) Good lesson for me. Sounds like you know a lot!)

Yes that makes complete sense! I was there in college I guess. Especially after my twin got married and left me there by myself. {bawling} I was out of church for a while. Took a few religion classes. Questioned why I believed what I did. Wondered "what if" and "what about that". It wasn't until almost a year after I got married and we started going back to church that I was strong in the faith again. We had an outstanding pastor who talked about real life, real people, a real God! Awesome! Then we were expecting a baby and got into some discipleship classes through our church--WOW! I think it takes some good testimonies and seeing people really live their lives for Christ before you realize all there is. God works through people. Look at Paul--he came face to face with the risen Christ and then turned most of the known world on it's ear!! {toothy} Now that's what I call being on fire for the Lord! :)

There are a lot of books. There are a lot of people who say they are Christians. Then there is the Bible... If you are still really wondering--when you are ready, pick it up again. :) He won't disappoint you.

[PsalmReader]

blinc, I thought of you at church today when we were singing this song... I don't know if I'm quoting it exactly, but here goes.

"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today. He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way. He lives, He lives, salvation to impart. You ask me how I know He lives. He lives within my heart."

:) Gives me goose bumps!

I'll leave you along now. Just wanted you to know that I thought of you and your question.:)

[dreuby]

Originally posted by PsalmReader
LOL! I wish I could quote it! I keep my Bible right here with me at the computer. :)

A great on-line Bible search is at http://bible.crosswalk.com/

You can also have it on your web page if your site covers that sort of stuff. Lots of different Bible versions - it's great.

[PsalmReader]

Thanks dreuby! I get alot of emails from crosswalk's site, but I didn't realize that was there. I had seen that some people at a different site where "quoting" Scripture from somewhere, while I was typing away to put up all my verses! I figured they had the Bible on CD software or something. You'd think I'd catch on quicker and figure something out to make it easier on me, but oh no--I'm slow! lol

[blinc]

PsalmReader, you're not bugging me! It makes me feel good that you even thought of me! :) You know, I remember that song from going to church when I was a kid! :) One of my favorites was "The Old Rugged Cross". What's yours?

[PsalmReader]

Favorite hymn? Just one? Oh, I guess it would have to be "Amazing Grace". But I grew up in a Baptist church on hymns, so it's really hard to pick one. :) "The Old Rugged Cross" is a great one too.

I love the music at the church here. It is a great blend of traditional hymns and contemporary choruses. My hubby would just as soon ditch the hymns as keep them, but he didn't grow up in church. I don't want to miss out on the new stuff, but I don't want to throw out the hymns either! I would just {bawling}.

[thespian]

Greetings to everyone. This is a thread I should have visited a long while ago. I have much to say, but will try to keep it short.

I was raised in a Pentacostal home and gave my life to Christ at age 13. As I grew older, the Secular world enticed me away from what was really a descision made by a teenager who had little idea of what life was about.

Over the next twenty-odd years, I grew further away from God and religion. I considered religion to be the enemy. Consider the fact that 80% of all wars are fought around religion. Religion and it's practices are man-made. The very fact that different religions understand the laws of God differently is in itself a dilema. It was religion that persecuted Christ!

Anyway, these facts eventually had me looking toward New Age Theology at a point in my life when the soul started searching for a deeper meaning to existance. When I discovered the truths about Humanism and the like, I surprised myself by the vehement way in which I defended the God I had grown to know as a child. Could I really still believe in creationism? Was it not just a fairy tale told to the feeble-minded as something to cling to? It would appear not. A part of me which defied explanation stood up and said "There is only One God and He is Jehova!"

I was confused to say the least. I have always thought of myself as having an above average intelligence and I was having difficulty understanding that I still believed in something so intangible.

Nevertheless, as a result of circumstances (which I believe God allowed to occur in my life), I confessed my sins and accepted the Salvation of Jesus Christ in my life last year.

My reason for this post is that whilst I am now a "practicing" Christian, I have many doubts. In my heart-of-hearts I know that God exists but I think that satan uses my intelligence against me and I am costantly plagued with a spirit of critism. I sit in church and critise everyone. I get fed-up when so much emphasis is placed on tithing. I am critical of the way in which the music is chosen to create a specific atmosphere in the worship services. I sometimes think of it as nothing more than just mass-hypnotism. I often (almost always) consider my fellow bretheren as being simple-minded.

Please don't misunderstand me. I Hate that I feel this way. The people in our church are wonderful and their support is amazing. I really am getting quite desperate.

Sorry, this thread is not well structured but I am typing as my mind is leading. I may not even post this.

I suppose the one thing that I have the biggest problem with is this - When we pray for a specific outcome, say the healing of a loved one and the person is healed, we say that God is Great and has performed a miracle. Howevr, when that person dies, we say it was the Will of God. Now that of course is the most illogical thing I can think of. I believe it - have no doubt, but lucifer just keeps on making me wonder about it.

I do love God with all my heart and I am, through His grace trying to live a life filled with His Holiness. I just wish I could shake some of these constant nagging doubts, because until I do - I cannot fully accept my own salvation!

A last thing - there is only one hymn - "How Great Thou Art" :)

[RoadRunner]

Wow Bill, that is quite a post. Thank you so much for sharing.

There is a branch of study called apologetics that is basically a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity. Many of the worlds greatest minds have been Christians who carefully examined their faith and the Bible. I will provide a list of books, and I believe I read somewhere that Jim will send you two of them for free.

[RoadRunner]

Here is a list of good apologetics books by the best authors: Bruce, F.F. The Books and the Parchments. Fleming Revell.
Bruce, F.F. The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? Inter-Varsity Press.
Geisler, Norman L. & Brooks, Ronald M. When Skeptics Ask. Victor Books.
Geisler, Norman L. & Nix, William E. A General Introduction to the Bible. Moody Press.
Geisler, Norman L. Christian Apologetics. Baker Book House.
Geisler, Norman L. Miracles and the Modern Mind. Baker Book House.
Habermas, Gary R. Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus. Nelson.
Lewis, C.S. Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing Company.
Lewis, C.S. The Case for Christianity. Macmillan Publishing Company.
Little, Paul. Know Why You Believe. Inter-Varsity Press.
McDowell, Josh & Stewart, Don. Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith. Living Books.
McDowell, Josh & Stewart, Don. Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity. Living Books.
McDowell, Josh. Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Volume I. Here’s Life Publishers
McDowell, Josh. Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Volume II. Here’s Life Publishers
McDowell, Josh. More Than a Carpenter. Living Books.
Montgomery, John Warwick. Evidence for Faith. Probe Books.
Montgomery, John Warwick. History & Christianity. Inter-Varsity Press.
Morison, Frank. Who Moved the Stone? Lamplighter Books.
Shaeffer, Francis A. He Is There and He Is Not Silent. Tyndale House Publishers.
Smith, Wilbur. Therefore Stand. Keats Publishing.
Stott, John R.W. Basic Christianity. Inter-Varsity Press.
Stott, John R.W. You Can Trust The Bible. Discovery House Publishers.
Thomas, Griffith. How We Got Our Bible. Dallas Seminary Press.
Vanauken, Sheldon. A Severe Mercy. Harper Collins.

[blinc]

Thespian I thought that was a great post! You know, it's so good to know that those of us with doubts aren't alone in our doubts. That so many here have went through the same thing and some of us still have questions. It's so good to be able to talk to people this way, because it gives us time to write out our feelings... for me, it's so much easier then trying to talk face to face with someone. I don't think I could just sit and talk to someone... but here it seems to give me the privacy I need to form my thoughts, or let them run, without having to worry about the instant reply to a person as I would feel it necessary in a live conversation.

As far as worrying about making a long post *cough* have you seen some of mine or Jim's? *grin* Please, type away til your fingers can't type anymore! There's no rule here that says if you've got something to say, you have to limit it to this or that much space.

It's great to see you over in this part of the forum! :)

[RoadRunner]

C. S. Lewis is one of the greatest apologists of all times. He has a couple of books listed up there. A couple of his books that are also worth reading are: Lewis, C.S. The Problem of Pain. Macmillan Publishing Company.
Lewis, C.S. The Screwtape Lettters. Macmillan Publishing Company.Probably the most in-depth books up there are the two Evidence That Demands a Verdict books by Josh McDowell, but they are not easy reading. They are more like reference books.

C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity is another difficult read, but very good. Sometimes I had to re-read paragraphs several times to fully grasp what he was saying.

IIRC, Frank Morrison was an attorney who decided to study the evidence against Christianity to prove a Christian friend wrong. Instead he found the evidence for Christianity to be overwhelming and converted. Several of the authors basically had the same story. They decided to prove Chistianity was a bunch of malarkey and then came to faith in the process.

Geisler is a Bible expert. He is a seminary prof somewhere. His A General Introduction to the Bible is standard reading at seminaries and is excellent. It tells how we got our Bible and examines all of the different translations. F. F. Bruce's books explain the Bible's origins also.

A Severe Mercy is an autobiography of a guy who knew C. S. Lewis, and I think C. S. Lewis led him to Christ. It is a real tear-jerker of a book and is very good.

[RoadRunner]

BTW, you can get a lot of those books at www.christianbooks.com. The prices are good, and I have been buying from them for at least five years.

[PsalmReader]

Great testimony thespian! I kind of know how you feel. I find myself questioning things too. The devil can use that against us, but I think God understands. I don't think the questioning is wrong or bad unless we dwell on it. I can understand about your feelings during church too. I have to say that many, many of my real worship experiences come at home. :) Just me and God. I like it that way! I enjoy church and am there all the time, but being at home with the Lord is more intimate for me.

[thespian]

Thank you to everyone. Thanx firstly for the opportunity to actualy put my confusions onto "paper" as such. I am truly touched by the quick and supportive replies I have received over the last few hours.

I will certainly start building up a library of the suggested books. I did not even know of the existence of aplogetics.

I need to make more time in my life for what my mom refers to as her "Quiet Time". I don't spend enough time in communication with God. Sometimes it's just a few minutes rattled off, more to sooth a guilty concience than anything else. Tonight though I will spend more time than normal in prayer and most of that will have much to do with the people on this thread.

Once again I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I could not begin to find the words that would explain what these posts have meant to me. For the first time in a long while, I feel as if there is future in my spiritual growth.

This forum is an absolute Godsend since I do not really have much opportunity to socialise with fellow believers except for my immediate family (Mom and Sisters) and I hardly ever get to see them.

Anyway, I pray that God will bless each one of you and that he will grant me the strength and wisdom I need to have the Faith that serving Him demands.

Till next we meet..

[Military Mom]

Hi guys,

Well, I think this is my first time posting here in Q&A. I drop in on occasion, to see how much I can recall....

I'm glad to have an opportunity to talk about my thoughts on this matter.

As far back as myt mind lets me remember, I have had strong, considerable doubts. Where others have always been content to accept and trust, I have questioned and doubted. I have been from one extreme to the next where spirituality and chrisitianity have been concerned. I can see myself as a very little girl seated in the pew, looking around at everyone, secretly wondering if they are all just pretending to uphold some mysterious image or concept. Knowing that if my grandfather could look into my mind how disappointed he would be....

In general, I just went along with the crowd of churchgoers and with my family and prayed and mostly believed. Spent a lot of time feeling guilty and unfulfilled. (sp) I learned about Christianity, the Bible. I know my stories and my verses, same as all of you. One hot summer day I sat and read Revelations - ALL of it. By the time I got to the end I was shaking and crying. I knew I was destined for the lake of fire, that I would burn. I tried to calculate the likelihood of a short, tomboyish ten year old girl reserving her place amongst the 144,000 who would sit at His side at the end of everything. Was I supposed to take this literal? Oh, I had nightmares about Armegeddon (sp), and wondered when it would come.... And no one I knew of at the time could offer me any guidance.

Skip to age 16. I was, as I had always been, involved in youth group, church, volunteer stuff, choir. My doubts still lived where they always had. I no longer had nightmares about 'The Coming of Christ.' On one youth group weekend in the woods, I let my guard down and sought guidance in Paul. He and his wife Pam served as innovative leaders of our group. I told him all about how I wondered if there was a god, what proof there was, on and on. Looking back on that night, I remember less of what words of wisdom Paul had and more of the way he seemed to be preoccupied, the way he was sweating, the scent of his cologne and the way he trembled when he hugged me ....

But a few bad experiences with religion may have been enough to put a bad taste in my mouth they did not scare me off altogether. I did that on my own. I never consulted with anyone else before or after that about my feelings, I kept them inside and ruminated on them. Refined my own theories. I decided that there was no god. Too many holes in the bible and religion for it to be the final word. I decided that the reason there was a god is because man created one (or rather many gods).

In this vast universe, who are we to think that whatever [if anything] created existance would take time time to listen to our selfish, tiny concerns, or take the time to intervene in or care in the least about our lives beyond our existance as a race on the whole? Awfully presumptious of us, don't you think? But don't forget, we are the same people who KNEW the heavens rotated around the earth, who KNEW the earth was flat. Look at all the things we still think we know.

Today, my theory has evolved. I feel that the existance of god can neither be proven nor disproven. Individuals may believe or know one exists and for them that is their individual reality. Mine is one that unfinished. It will remain unfinished until the day I die and know the truth for sure. Only at that moment will I know. We will ALL know then. For now, I do feel that if there is a god, he/she/it is unlike anything we have or can imagine or fabricate. It is timeless, boundless and most likely owns none of the attributes we have unassumingly endowed it with (love, forgiveness, wrath). It creates for the sake of creating, and we and this universe are yet another craft, one out of countless others.

Well, sorry for such a long post - and as you can imagine, I still have more to say about all of this and so much more. I hope this makes some sort of sense to somebody.

mm

[PsalmReader]

MM, I'll say that I haven't been content to just accept and trust. I have searched and still believe. I don't think that God has a problem with us questioning and doubting. He can give us any answer He chooses (or not). God has brought me back every time I have doubted. He has brought me back even stronger than before I doubted. It is truly a relationship.

Originally posted by Military Mom
I can see myself as a very little girl seated in the pew, looking around at everyone, secretly wondering if they are all just pretending to uphold some mysterious image or concept. Knowing that if my grandfather could look into my mind how disappointed he would be....

In general, I just went along with the crowd of churchgoers and with my family and prayed and mostly believed. Spent a lot of time feeling guilty and unfulfilled. (sp) I learned about Christianity, the Bible. I know my stories and my verses, same as all of you.
I tend to think there are a lot of people in this boat. I think some people who call themselves Christians are just riding in the boat that someone sat them in without having a relationship with Christ. Some of the most committed Christians I see did not learn all the stories as a child. God radically changed their lives as adults. (Was your grandfather a pastor?)

Originally posted by Military Mom
One hot summer day I sat and read Revelations - ALL of it. By the time I got to the end I was shaking and crying. I knew I was destined for the lake of fire, that I would burn. I tried to calculate the likelihood of a short, tomboyish ten year old girl reserving her place amongst the 144,000 who would sit at His side at the end of everything. Was I supposed to take this literal? Oh, I had nightmares about Armegeddon (sp), and wondered when it would come.... And no one I knew of at the time could offer me any guidance.
My first real experience with Revelation was when my great grandparents passed away. Our pastor came back into a lounge room where all the great grandkids were hanging out at the funeral home. He explained a lot to us about heaven then. Remember that Revelation is very symbolic book, explaining John's vision--also because of the persecution that was going on when it was writen. If I were you I don't think I would let go of that picture of the lake of fire, but the 144,000 number is not meant to number all the people who will be in heaven with God.

Sorry that "Paul" didn't have a stronger witness/ testimony to share with you. I think the Apostle Paul's testimony (as I studied it in "To Live is Christ" by Beth Moore) changed my life. He saw the risen Christ and it radically changed his life. What an example!

Originally posted by Military Mom
But a few bad experiences with religion may have been enough to put a bad taste in my mouth they did not scare me off altogether. I did that on my own. I never consulted with anyone else before or after that about my feelings, I kept them inside and ruminated on them.
I have learned not to look to religion. Look to God and His Word. There are people who can "consult", but God will speak to you directly if you seek Him. I like that you said runinated! I used to teach agriculture.

Originally posted by Military Mom
Refined my own theories. I decided that there was no god. Too many holes in the bible and religion for it to be the final word. I decided that the reason there was a god is because man created one (or rather many gods).
What holes? Man has created many gods. We do every day of our lives. Many of us worship money without even realizing it.

Originally posted by Military Mom
In this vast universe, who are we to think that whatever [if anything] created existance would take time time to listen to our selfish, tiny concerns, or take the time to intervene in or care in the least about our lives beyond our existance as a race on the whole? Awfully presumptious of us, don't you think? But don't forget, we are the same people who KNEW the heavens rotated around the earth, who KNEW the earth was flat. Look at all the things we still think we know.
We are pretty stupid sometimes aren't we!! But, God tells us in the Bible that he cares for us. I think that is very humbling, not presumptious.

Originally posted by Military Mom
Today, my theory has evolved. I feel that the existance of god can neither be proven nor disproven. Individuals may believe or know one exists and for them that is their individual reality.
Can't argue there. It has to be an individual thing. Can't prove it or disprove it.

Originally posted by Military Mom
Mine is one that unfinished. It will remain unfinished until the day I die and know the truth for sure. Only at that moment will I know. We will ALL know then.
You are right here too. We will ALL know then, but if the Bible is true it will be too late for you then. IF it is not, what have I lost?

Originally posted by Military Mom
For now, I do feel that if there is a god, he/she/it is unlike anything we have or can imagine or fabricate. It is timeless, boundless and most likely owns none of the attributes we have unassumingly endowed it with (love, forgiveness, wrath).
I agree with the first part--timeless, boundless, unlike anything we can imagine. We cannot comprehend what God is like. WOW!! But our assumptions are based on the Bible.

Originally posted by Military Mom
It creates for the sake of creating, and we and this universe are yet another craft, one out of countless others.
I'll agree that we are one out of countless others. I don't understand why some Christians freak out when science says there could be life else where. I think it is presumptious of us to think that we are the only think God created. Angels are not humans, why should we think that this planet/ solar system is the only thing God made?

I'll disagree with just for the sake of creating though. Tell me something you create. I'll use an example of pictures (snapshots). I love to take pictures. Maybe even just for the sake of taking them at times, but I always look at them. I always try to see if they are in focus or not. I always want to see the result of what I did. Aren't you concerned with the things you create?

Originally posted by Military Mom
I hope this makes some sort of sense to somebody.
Did to me! I hope my words might help. :)
Sorry for all the quoting. I wanted to address your thoughts though. Hope it's not too much.
You put a lot of thought and time into that post. :) Thanks for sharing your feelings.

[keithster]

Wow! What a great thread. :)

I've got a couple of engineering degrees. The pursuit of those (along with college society) pushed me into the agnostic column. After college, I did find a pretty wishy-washy church more for social reasons than anything else, but I certainly wasn't going to go to any trouble to be a Christian.

What pushed me back was an encounter with someone who worked with some of the top physicists in the world. Physics to me has always been the ultimate science. To here this woman talk about the Christian faith of her colleagues rocked my world. It caused me to start the intellectual search. Things slowly fell into place and at some point I was solidly in the Christian column.

Many people have the "road to Damascus" experience that converts them to Christianity. For me, it was a process. I read a book, heard a speaker, thought long and hard about an issue, read the Bible, took something a friend said and digested it, etc. etc.

I did have the emotional experience one day, but by then the intellectual side was satisfied and I wasn't going to leave Christianity. The emotional experience just allowed me to drop some baggage I'd been carrying around forever.

During my agnostic days, I was incredibly turned off by religion. I looked for the hypocrits in the pews and blasted them. But someone pointed out that the MOST important thing is not what church you attend but that you have a relationship with Christ.

I too have a hard time sitting still for worship. The engineer in me wants to think and chew on content. But I have discovered Rich Mullins music which is for me so worshipful. I can put on one of his albumns and just lose myself singing along, worshipping God. Great stuff.

One book that I like to suggest is "Don't Check Your Brain at the Door" by Josh McDowell. It's intended for teens, but it's an easy, quick read and can give a person something with which to "argue" back.

"The Screwtape Letters" is absolutely brilliant. Every chapter nailed me between the eyes. Because it is so convicting and contains so much in each paragraph, it's not always easy to read. But what a book!

[jamesglewisf]

This is a side topic, but I thought I would address it.

Many non-Christians think they have found the Achilles heel of the church when they discover hypocrites inside. Nothing could be further from the truth. The church was made for hypocrites. All of the perfect people don't need to be saved from their sins. Perfect people don't need Christ or the church. Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but the lost.

Most people are hypocrites. We all believe one way and end up acting another. I know and profess that it is wrong to be rude to my wife, but I still end up doing it and apologizing later. Paul said:Romans 7:15, 19
15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.Paul, the greatest writer of the New Testament, admitted that he was a hypocrite. Hypocrites within the church are not a new phenomena.

I have a friend named Dan who gave a great illustration for this phenomenon. He talked about how unreasonable it would be to stop going to they gym just because every time he goes there he finds flabby, out-of-shape people. Not everybody in the gym is in the same place on their road to fitness, but hopefully they are all working on it.

[jamesglewisf]

OK. Back on topic.

MM, it is perfectly fine to come to this forum and express your doubts or lack of faith. Thank you for sharing.

I agree with Keith that there is plenty of solid evidence and that you don't have to have blind faith or suspend your intellect to believe the Bible. I also recommend the books he mentioned for anyone interested.

FrappyDoo is not a Christian website, so people of all beliefs should feel comfortable participating here. We aren't going to ridicule your beliefs. But if you have any questions about Christianity, you can stop in here (Bible Q&A) any time you want. That is the purpose of the Bible Q&A forum at FrappyDoo.

[Military Mom]

I just wanted to come here and voice what is in my heart. I know that this is not a place for debate and for once I am glad.

It is a common trait amongst humans to seek out a deeper, higher meaning to life - more in depth, credible explinations than what has already been offered. We see meaning and signs of things unseen (but not unfelt) around us. Like many others, I find only limited answers in Biblical literature. I won't even go into any kind of answer as to the "holes" in the Bible becasue this is not a place for debate, and I am still comtemplating how I feel about certain passages.

As far as a relationship with Christ, I am still forming mine as I continue to take inventory of my perceptions about his life and our veiw of it in the time which it took place. My thoughts on Christ are raw yet. I believe that a man who believed himself to be the Son of God walked the earth. He was an intelligent man, whose great mind was enhanced and influenced heavily by the teachings he absorbed in his youth. Despite the importance of his person, he lead the life of a peasant. His purpose was to spread his ideas to all of mankind in order to make the world a better place.

As for the miracles he performed as they are written in the Bible, a person can take a few different veiws. Believe them because one accepts what is written in the Bible as the absolute end all, be all truth. Or wax skeptical because one understands that the Bible is written by man, and that accounts can vary. Guess I don't need to say where I stand on this. I have tried to simply thrust aside my doubts and believe, I cannot tell you all how many times. But what is proof enough for one person is fodder for some to debate, and what serves as answers for some is the same material that only provokes more questions for others. I am one of those others, and I cannot change who I am.

Christ died a martyr for what guided and ruled his heart. His teachings are important for humans to follow because they are frought with wisdom. But so are the teachings of other great men - like Confuscious, Bhudda, and Ghandi. We live in the Western world where we are not often exposed to the greatness of others beyond what is mentioned in college or television and forget that we don't hold the only market on religion or metaphysical theory. We are immersed in our own culture. Which is fine, because it works for us (most of us). It clicks.

So, I am still researching what I believe as far as the life of Christ is concerned. I still have a lot to read about and discuss and digest, being that I am not one who has indisputable faith in the Bible.

I do need to address one comment that was made by PR's Mom that I was tempted to just let be. I want to make it clear that I do not fear consequences for my beliefs (or lack thereof). Fear of suffering in hell or not going to heaven or angering god may serve as motivators for some (which I think is sad beyond words) but not for me. There is a lot more I will leave unsaid here, but just know that this is one of the most significant reasons why I invest absolutely no faith in religion and have heavy issues with what has been written in the Bible. Let's just leave it at that, because I am just stating how I feel here, not wishing to offend, condescend or debate or anything. It is just what is im my heart.

I do know that there are things unseen that we do not fully understand. I just require more appropriate explinations for some of this phenomena that what is offered by the Bible, religion, and the current general vision that the majority fo humankind has formed of god. I will not be guilted, scared or coerced into a more acceptable, politically correct way of thinking (not that anyone here would ever try such a thing). Instead I devote a portion of my life to exploring metaphysical possibilities until I find ones that fit for me.

I am a moral person. I make the same mistakes as "Good Christians" make. With a few obvious exceptions I lead my life by the same moral codes. I believe and those who love me believe that I am a good person, and respect me for who I am and how my mind works. I am lost, and I am searching for answers that no one can know yet. It has been a long, lonely journey.

mm

[jamesglewisf]

I don't view your post as a debate, just an expression of where you are in your spritual walk. I really enjoyed reading it, and it makes me feel good that FrappyDoo is a friendly enough place that you feel comfortable posting your story here.

You will not receive any condemnation from me.

This thread has been very interesting. I think I am going to close it now. I really don't want to turn it into a debate. So far it has been a great spiritual walk thread that has served its purpose well.

If you or anyone else has further questions about Christianity or faith or the Bible, please feel free to start a new thread.

Thanks everyone for your contributions.