RU486

[LisaRx]

As a pharmacist, I'm very concerned that this is going to be a part of our lives now. Does anyone know how it will be regulated and distributed?

I just pray that if it is available in retail pharmacies that my company will not carry it. They, so far, have elected not to carry Preven (morning after pill).

[jamesglewisf]

What's the law on that? Does a pharmacist have to fill a prescription for RU486? Can you refuse to fill it?

[jamesglewisf]

This sure seems like Clinton's legacy. I can't imagine why else it would finally get FDA approval during the final months of his presidency. It took 10 years to get approval, and it happened just before he left? My guess is he wanted it approved.

[LisaRx]

Under the law, a pharmacist is not required to fill a prescription. However, there is a case in CA where a pharmacist refused to fill an oral contraceptive rx, and was taken to court.

I cannot remember the specifics of how the case turned out, but he was found to be "in the wrong" because he denied the patient their right to "health care" and did not help them find a source where they could get their prescription filled.

I also wonder just how much leverage the Clinton/Gore administration has with the FDA approval process.

One of the LOW-lights of the Dem. convention ,IMHO, was hearing Karenna Gore-Schiff proudly state that her father believed in a woman's right to have an abortion. It made me feel queasy to think about it--How could you be a doting grandfather and hold this position? I've heard all of the arguments, believe me, but how can he hold his grandson and think that abortion is a solution?

[LisaRx]

...To qualify my answer, though, there are things that I would be willing to lose both my job and my license over, and my employer is well aware of this.

[jamesglewisf]

Try holding your dying child and knowing that abortion is even legal. Pretty sick.

I don't think my wife has even heard about RU486 getting FDA approval. I'm not looking forward to the day she does. It will be very hard for her. It was hard on me, and I didn't carry our baby.

[jamesglewisf]

It's amazing that we can't get a debate going about RU486. Any other discussion board would already have people flaming each other.

[RoadRunner]

Some states are saying that the parental consent laws that apply to surgical abortions also apply to RU486. What do you think of that?

[LisaRx]

I have since found out that RU-486 will only be administered directly by doctors who are able to intervene with surgical procedures if the drug does not work as expected. So basically, it's just another method to add to the repertoire...

More women will be convinced that abortion is an easy and safe alternative, though.

[jamesglewisf]

LisaRx--It's great to have you back. Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that.

[TWTCommish]

The name of the pill is ironic...so, to put it shortly: "IMNOT486" :D

Abortion has got to be the worst thing this country has going right now...this "Woman's Right to Choose" stuff is, sorry for my bluntness...BULL. The child has rights as well.

I think we all know that we would give our lives for a younger child - that's just the way it should be...but of course a *REALLY* young child...like a fetus, does not have people willing to give their lives for it.

Here's a woman's right to choose for you: she has the right to have sex, or abstain. She accepts the consequences with either action.

[LisaRx]

Amen.

One of the things that I find so disturbing in our society is that there is a lack of consequences for actions. What are we teaching our kids? That there's an easy way out for everything, I suppose.

Unfortunately, we also teach people to be selfish--Just do what's best for YOU, that's all that matters....

Your spouse isn't "meeting your needs"--->divorce
"Inconvenient pregnancy"---->Abortion (after all, isn't it your right?)


...and so many others.

It's no wonder we have so many hostile and confused children.

(Stepping off my soapbox now)...

[TWTCommish]

Or, even worse "I'm in love with someone else." I hate that - it's a sneaky way of saying you want a divorce, but said in such a way as to make it sound as if staying married would stop you from pursuing your true love...or something like that.

[jamesglewisf]

LisaRx, I agree totally.

I spent too much on my credit cards-->Bankruptcy

[LoveMyWife]

Hi, this is my first post to this list. I wanted to make it where - regretfully - I find my deepest feelings.

May God's people like LisaRx be upheld by all of us as the "Soldier of God" that she is.

I am a 52 year old WASP. I'm a usually level-headed President of a high-tech hardware-software company God is in control of (when my heart is right). I grew up proud of being an American, and yes we had biases. We were raised to know what sin was... defined by the 10 Commandments... and I was taught to hate it as God hates it.

I have 3 young adults (son-24, son-22, daughter-19) who in marriage I responsibly sired, and raised and love with my wife of 30 years. My sons now work with me (what a blessing), and my daughter is in college pre-med. Pray for her to not be morally corrupted by the medical money-machine industry.

When my wife and I discovered we were pregnant with our 3rd, God had already awakened me to shift my faith from what "I was doing to be worthy of Heaven" to believing that Christ chose to give up his live and died to pay the price for my sins. I was then a Reborn Christian.

However, "I" didn't think I could handle 3 children financially. For a quarter-second, the thought came into my mind to abort this "fetus". I rejected that selfishness and God BLESSED ME with a daughter who for 12 years I had prayed nightly to receive! I can't tell you how painful it can be just remembering that for a quarter-second I considered aborting her.

Now, what does a mother who actually kills (aka aborts) her baby feel? I have read many stories from middle-aged women who aborted their babies in their youth. Now they wake up to reason in middle age and know in her "heart of hearts" that she murdered her child. Were they told the truth? Are our young girls told the truth today? NO! They are lied to unless a God-fearing person stands up and reveals the truth. Today, that is becoming illegal to do! May God have mercy on America who no longer practices "In God We Trust".

If every person who was considering an abortion would read these "after-effects" true stories from women who now suffer with the reality of what they did, there would be fewer abortions.

The ancient pagan god Molek is alive and well today! I just heard on the radio that in ancient Israel there was a metal statue of Molek even outside the Temple walls! On special days, they would kindle a raging fire within it until its arms and hands glowed red-hot. Then they would sacrifice their young, born babies on the red-hot hands of their god.

Have you ever taken the time to read some of the Pro-Life literature that tells the truth of what happens in a saline-solution injection induced abortion? The baby writhes in agony for up to 4 hours until their little body shrivels from dehydration and finally dies.

Are you aware of what happens in the technique the liberal media so glibly calls "Partial Birth Abortion"? Scissors are thrust into the brain-stem of a live baby who's head has already been born. Late term? Read on...

The reason why this technique is so desirable today, is that unlike murder by saline, all the fetal organs and tissue are undamaged.

The Abortion Mills (aka Clinics) publish price lists for FRESH, UNDAMAGED BABY PARTS. Every part is harvested, even the spinal column is on the list. Some medical advances that are being announced are the direct result of fetal-tissue research. What an incredible price we are paying in the name of "medical research" today.

Remember how the animal rights activists protested and picketed Pharmaceutical companies who used Dogs and Monkeys for research? Or the "Save the Whales" movement? Remember the fervor they had for these lower creations of our Heavenly Father? Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree with them.

Yet not only our Judicial arm of Government, but our Legislative AND… (God forgive them) our President… and her husband – all are pushing infanticide in the guise of “Womans Rights”! I pray the people of NY wake up and see the sinfulness in this godless creature. I choose to honor motherhood and womanhood by refusing to call her by those honorable names.

How long will we sleep? How long will we tolerate the lies? It is the sinful greed of self and money that drives abortion. It is godless men and women who stand to prosper who push this evil on America and, through our President and his wife, export it worldwide as the "American" way. As many soldiers of the Cross have said: "God will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah if He does not punish America for our homosexual and abortion sins."

LisaRx, in God's eyes you are right.. and I pray God blesses and protects you for standing firm! Abortion is murder no matter how it is done. In God's eyes, a pill that intentionally causes a mother's body to reject her fertile egg is just as sinful as any other form of murder. Jesus said if you call your brother a fool, your sin is the same as if you murdered him. Or a man who lusts after a woman has already committed adultry in his heart. God knows the heart and the intentions of men and women. RU486 is just as evil as Partial Birth abortion. As you rightfully say you fear, it is just a lot more convienent to administer and "swallow".

God's holy word says: "If MY people will turn from THEIR evil ways and repent of their sins, THEN I will heal their land." It doesn't say anything about pagans or heathens. It is GODS PEOPLE who must turn from our ways and follow His will and laws. Marterdom is never condoned by society, but honored by God for eternity.

TWTCommish, thanks for your posting in other forums that led me to MarriedAdult.com forum.

Jim, God bless you for hosting a forum and letting your faith be seen. If you need to tone this down, I understand. I just couldn't visit and not call abortion murder as it is in God's eyes.

[TWTCommish]

I do not see anything that is need of being toned down at all. All I can say in response is: "Bravo."

I think the election of George Bush (and believe me, it WILL happen) will help get things moving in the right direction...I only hope he will make abortion a priority over basically every other issue out there.

We're glad to have you here - we welcome all points of view. Yours obviously concurs with that of myself and James, but even if you disagreed you would be welcome.

[Anat]

Hi all,

This is most interesting for me as an outsider. I think I'll learn a lot about your culture from this forum!

Chris, I didn't understand your last post - from what I've read in this thread, it seemed to me you all had the exact same view (very anti-abortion). Did I miss something?

Anat.

[TWTCommish]

Uh, yes, I'm very anti-abortion. What part confuses you?

[jamesglewisf]

Originally posted by TWTCommish
Uh, yes, I'm very anti-abortion. What part confuses you?

I think she might have been confused by this statement:I think the election of George Bush (and believe me, it WILL happen) will help get things moving in the right direction...I only hope he will make abortion a priority over basically every other issue out there.
That could be read the wrong way.

[Anat]

What I meant is your saying that you welcome all views - I thought you meant that your views are different...

Is there anyone in this forum who's not anti-abortion. I'm ineterested in hearing other views.

Anat

[TWTCommish]

My bad - I see my mistake now. I simply said that to encourage those with conflicting viewpoints to post - gets old when people spend time argreeing with each other on a controversial subject. :)

[Anat]

My partner and I are trying hard for a baby now - it's a lot more difficult than what we thought... I would say now that there needs to be a good reason for having an abortion, butI can see such reasons.

Having a child is a wonderful thing and I think that any child (and any creature for that matter) deserves a GOOD life, not just any life.

In my view, some lives are not worth living and I wouldn't want to create one of these. I would recommend using contraceptives rather than having abortions of course.

An abortion must be so stressful for the woman, no one in their right mind would advocate an abortion just for the sake of it, would they? It's much better not to create these babies in the first place, unless you know you can take care of them. In my view, it's not so much a question of a woman's right to choose. It's a question of each human being's right for life - a decent life!

I have a question for you -

What do you think of animal shelters all over the world (including the US) putting to sleep thousands of cats and dogs each and every day? Isn't it better to spay and neuter in the first place? And as for those puppies and kittens already born - what alternative can you offer? I am not comparing babies and puppies, but aren't they also God's creatures?

Anat

[LoveMyWife]

Anat, there are countries (Russia for one) where women get abortions regularly as a way of life. They don't have access to contraceptives (or can't afford them), and they don't want to abstain from sex. Their young women (my "understanding" comes only from what I have read and heard on radio shows, some as interviews from visiting Russians) are becoming very hardened in their hearts. It is heart-breaking to hear and see a civilization in such decay. They have lost their soul and vision.

I belive it is in the Torah where God said "Where there is no vision, the people die". You can see this wherever political leaders have killed the intelligentsia of a nation. The eastern-block nations are just now coming out from this from WW2. Leck Wolenska (Poland's President) was an electrician, not a statesman or highly educated person (and God blessed him for standing up for what is right). Stalin massacred millions of the best farmers who knew how to farm the Russian land and environment to produce crops. As a result, the communes never produced enough food to feed the nation. The UN, USA and other countries have tried to keep Russia from deeper hunger disaster.

As to euthanasia for dogs and cats, no one wants to do this and getting them "fixed" (spay/neuter) is the preferred choice. However, just as some humans don't worry about getting pregnant and having an abortion, they also don't care enough about their pets to get the operation done. Animals WILL procreate! Then, if the owner is humane, they take the litter of kittens or puppies and drop it at an animal shelter. The shelters are overwhelmed. Where I live in North Carolina, our shelter has become very creative. They hold "Pet Days" at the shopping malls where you can see the cats/dogs they have brought for adoption. Of course young kids want to pet and take home the cute little fluff-balls. It works very well. When my daughter was in high-School, she helped at several Pet Days and was pleased to see the animals being adopted. She wanted me to come see some of the pets she was handling. With 2 cats already, I had to say no more!

We bought our 2 cats from the shelter in the past 6 years, and paid to get them fixed, shots, etc. It is expensive, as is feeding them both and getting their shots, etc. Our TV stations carry "public service announcements" encouraging owners to get their animals spayed/neutered. Education is the best way. Also, you must register the pets in your house. Your taxes are higher if you don't have them fixed.

It is up to individuals to speak up as to what is right for a society. "WE" - our individual actions - define the societies we live in. When there is such an outcry against the leaders, where a dictatorship does not control, they can be replaced. God has established in His laws that abortion is murder. It is up to those who "fear God" to see His ways are brought and kept before the society they live in. Each of us has to come to grips with what is worth fighting for in our lives. If we give in to sinful ways, the legacy we inherited from our forefathers - who died for the liberties we now enjoy - will be lost and out children will have their liberties revoked. We are seeing it happen in America today by those who wish to make every imaginable sin acceptable. That is the goal of most of the power structure in Hollywood. We have seen Al Gore struggle with courting the big money from Hollywood, then have to answer questions from mothers about the violence and sex our children are exposed to. He did some pretty fancy "verbal-footwork" in the debate last night on that very point. His answer was at exact opposite to his actions in the past month accepting over $4 million in Hollywood contributions.

[Anat]

I agree with most of what you say, really.

My point was just that sometimes children are better off not being born in the first place because they end up in a miserable life.

I know that Catholics and Orthodox Jews are also against the use of contraceptives and I totally disagree with them. Obviously, where people have little or no access to contraceptives you have a problem.

By the way, even with free access to contraceptives I wouldn't advocate free sex. I belive that this is something to be had only within a very stable and long-lasting relationship. I don't bring God into it really. It's a social and moral question that people need to solve for themselves. I totally agree that social values are what we as individuals make them to be.

Sorry, Chris - I know you were looking for controversy, but I don't really disagree with you people... :) I think that the posts in this thread make a lot of sense and I agree with most of what was said. I just think that things are not always black and white and while abortions are definitely not a welcome thing, sometimes people have no better choice.

I'm afraid I'm less inclined to seek God's laws about every apecific thing. Personally, I don't remember where it says in the Bible "thou shall not have abortions" or something to that effect, but I'm sure someone here will point it out for me :). Anyway, I eat pork and shrimps and that's something that the bible (at least the Torah) very clearly and directly says is a major no-no. I take myself to be a very moral and good person, without being the least bit religious. I try to do good all my life and help those in need that I can help (mostly cats really :)), but I don't keep each and every rule in the bible.

Anyway, the way my posts go, Chris or Jim will soon have to move the thread to the religion forum....:) so I'll stop here.

Anat.

[TWTCommish]

No need to move it: we're in "Anything Goes" :)

Yes, if you're having trouble finanically and are virtually positive that the child would not be given the life you would like to give it, then you should wait - however that is no exscuse for an abortion, only an exscuse for using contraceptives, or abstaining.

[LisaRx]

Anat--

My problem with your statement is: Who is to be the judge of whether a life will be "worthwhile"?

My belief is that we should leave it up to God, who is the One who has known us since the moment of conception. Who are we to intervene with a life?

As for all of the arguments FOR abortion, I just can't buy into it. If you were a product of rape, and your mother chose to carry you and deliver you, are you any less of a human? Are you less valuable in the eyes of our laws, or more important, in the eyes of God? How about incest?? Well, I agree, it is a horrible situation. But is a child born as a result of incest not a human?? Something to think about...

[TWTCommish]

You're right...we shouldn't be the ones who choose...meaning if you're not SURE whether or not you think the child can have a good life, then abstain.

[Anat]

Hmmmmm, you make some interesting points.

As I said, I agree with you basically that abortion is not good and contraceptives/abstaining is better.

However, let me go back to the cats and dogs for a moment (again - no direct comparison, I don't think humans and pts are the same, as much as I love pets).

When a dog or a cat arrives at a shelter, most chances are that it will be euthanized. No-kill shelters will often have difficulties accepting it in the first place cause they're full almost by definition. The alternative too often is either to put the animal to sleep or... ignore it? let it try its chance on the streets? I don't know. But we could not kill it actively and let God take care of it, after all, as you said, who are we to make this decision? If God created them, are we the ones to kill them?

And I say to that - yes. Unfortunately, yes. With tears, yes. Letting them loose on the streets means they'll die anyway, and in misery. Sure, God could perform a little miracle and they'll find a good home.

You know, statistically it probably would happen to some if we do that. But I do believe it's our responsibility to intervene and sometimes when we can do nothing else - put them to sleep. You see, I believe very strongly in the holiness of life - I believe that life is holy and should be decent and good for any creature.

I feel that I can sometimes make the moral decision of when that life is good or bad for a cat or a dog. Yes, putting them to sleep is better than letting them back on the streets where they would probably starve, get run over, get into the hands of sadists or a thousand other miseries.

Again, babies are not dogs. But I feel that sometimes people can and should take responsibility and prevent a miserable life. I'm willing to take that responsibility if needs be.

I really want to have a baby soon. If I find out that the fetus carries some horrible defect (is that the term?), I would probably have an abortion rather than bring it into this world for a life that I deem not worth living. It's a tough decision, that is not to be taken lightly, but it's my responsibility as a parent to take care of that.

I'd love to hear you opinions on that one

Anat.

[TWTCommish]

I see your point - it's a hard decision, and since the Bible does not specifically address things like this, we have to use our best judgement. But obviously when it comes to a child, there's no judgement to be made...the child is born, and either given the best life possible or given away to someone who can raise the child proficiently.

[LisaRx]

...and there are plenty of people who are born with handicaps of all kinds. Should we tell them that there lives are not worth as much as ours? Sure, it is much more difficult, and parents are faced with a life of struggle ahead, but could you say to a person with cerebral palsy, or a person without limbs (which there is not a genetic test for)--"you do not have a good life, maybe you should not have been born"?

I know several parents right now with children who have Cystic Fibrosis. There is a genetic test for this horrible disease. In all cases, I think that these parents lives have been incredibly blessed by these beautiful children who have horrible health problems. Every cough or cold they get could mean the end of a life they fight for day in and day out. But, I don't think that the parents wish they had not had the child. Nor, do I think that these particular children would say they do not have a life worth living. They have parents who love them!

I think if you are going into parenthood with the idea that you only want a child if it's going to be healthy, you should examine your heart. Parenthood does not always live up to our expectations. There are things that can happen to a healthy child that can change their lives in an instant. But I still cannot accept the rationale that it's ok to abort a child who is not healthy. If a baby gets a high fever and becomes brain damaged, should we than euthanize the baby? Same principle.

The waters are very muddy. I guess my choice is to let God be God. I know I don't have all of the right answers, but I AM confident that HE does!

[Anat]

Hi Lisa,

You can be certain that if I find out that my fetus has CF or no limbs I would have an abortion. That's why you do an ultrasound and you can definitely see if there any limbs missing.

Look, I know this might upset you, but I do feel it would be cruel to knowingly bring this child to the world. I know that accidents can happen and that there is no gurantee that a baby will be born healthy or that he/she will stay healthy. People can become blind, deaf, lose limbs and any other thing you can think of and it can hapen at any age - I am fully aware of that.

Sure, once you bring a baby to this world, you are totally committed to her/him, no matter what. But if you can make sure that babies are healthier, I think that's definitely increases their chance for a good life.

I still believe that as some of these things are preventable, it is our duty to prevent them. Yes, I can fairly easliy say that life for a CF patient is less good then being healthy. How can you think otherwise? I'm very happy that these children live in good loving family - and I think that the parents may even gain spiritually from the experience. I still refuse to believe that they think this is better then having control over the situation and having a healthy baby.

Let me ask you a question -
Say you have this couple with a genetic problem and the doctors tell them they would almost surely have a very sick baby who would die in a young age. Do you feel they should go ahead and have a baby?

Now, what if they could have genetic therapy this way: create 100 embryos (sp?) and check all of them and then use only the one or two that are healthy. Would you object to that?

These are not hypothetical questions by the way. These are everyday issues in today's world.

Anat

[TWTCommish]

I don't know if they should have a baby or not - depends on the illness. I most cases I would recommend adoption or foster care if a fully healthy child cannot be given birth to.

If I find out I have a child in my wife's womb missing an arm, I would certainly not kill it.

Here is all you need to ask yourself:

1...are you God? If you're not, then you should probably let him handle fate.

2...when does life begin? I have yet to see any even mildly solid argument for any other moment OTHER than conception...if it's alive, than the case is closed: don't kill it.

[TWTCommish]

Think of it this way: if it's alive at conception, than killing it, despite it's irregularities, is just like killing a totally born child with physical defects, or a toddler, or a teenager - who are you to tell them their lives are not worth living? Parents or no parents, they deserve a chance.

[Anat]

So what about the cats and dogs being put to sleep? Are you God to decide for them?
No, I'm not God, I'm a human being who takes responsibility and takes decision in the best way I see fit. No, I don't think that aborting a weeks old embryo is like killing a baby. I believe that the term fetus in English relates to a different stage of development of the nervous system. An embryo is alive, but so is an ant. In fact an ant is moch more developed, sentient and larger than an embryo in the first week after conception. Yet, you wouldn't say anything against people killing ants if they have to (say the ants invaded your living room), would you?

Everyone who is not a vegeterian or who's ever stepped on an ant for that matter, plays God to some extent by extinguishing another creature's life. Believe me a cat or even a cow are much more developed and conscious then a fetus, let a lone an embryo.

I feel that in order to carry this argument to the full, you need to be like those Hindos who site on the same spot for 50 years, so that they wouldn't accidentally step over an insect.

If you're going to say that the Bible said "do not have an abortion" but never said "do not step on an ant", then this argument would be interesting but futile. As I said elsewhere, I believe it is up to us to inerpret the bibles laws and adjust them to this day and age.

I'm not advocating abortions as such. But if they need to be performed in order to prevent suffering that I think they should be allowed. I'm willing to take that responsibility, because not having an abortions is also a choice with grave consequences.

Have you seen the film about the submarines (I forgot its name) about the American crew that is sent to take over a German submarine during WW2? There were similar moral issues there that can be discussed.

Anat

[TWTCommish]

Heard of it, havn't seen it.

You want to know why I can be "God" to judge for dogs, cats, and ants? Because they're not babies! God gave them to us for our use. This does not mean we should be reckless with them...we should not allow species to become extinct, but no such animal can come near to a human life in value.

You can definetly make the claim that the Bible can be left open to interpretation...but some things are just obvious: animals are here for our use, life is sacred, so even the CHANCE of killing something alive should be avoided with a simple act of abstinence.

I'd still love a response (not saying that as an insult or "you don't have an answer" :)): when does life begin? As far as I know it begins at conception...I'm open to other points, but I cannot fathom it being pinpointed down to any other moment, since conception marks the moment it is GOING To become a full grown child, and actually has living cells.

[Anat]

Chris,

When does life begin? It's complicated and as I said several times, there are no simple "black or white" answers. Just because something is complicated does not mean we have to resort to a simple answer. It means we have to consider each case.

Life is a complicated issue. Not every living thing is something that we must preserve alive at any price. When I get pregnant, I'm sure I'll think of this as my baby from the very first moment I'll know about the pregnancy. But that would be my psychological and emotional representation of things. On another level, I would know that this is not a sentient conscious life yet. Only the potential to become one. Not very different then sperm or an egg before fertilization, IMO.

Aborting an embryo (rather than a fetus with a nervous system) is a terrible thing for the mother, not for the embryo. An embryo is not a person. Sure, it has the potential to become one, but it isn't yet. No more than an unfertilized egg basically. And I don't cry over these being lost every month :)

I really don't know what makes you so sure that you know exactly what God wants. How about this scenario - a religious person dies and stands before the Creator. Then God says, "remember when that woman had a terribly deformed child. There was so much suffering there and you could have prevented this suffering. I gave you the knowledge and tools to prevent this suffering. Why didn't you help her? Why did you let that poor soul be born and suffer so much? What I really wanted was for you to take the brave decision and help terminate this pregnancy so that the baby's soul would find a better body to reside within."

See what I mean?

Anat

[LisaRx]

Anat--

I also would like a definition of when life begins. Here is why:

If a baby is somehow damaged during the birth process (i.e. cord around the neck)--Is infanticide reasonable? Why not?
How about a baby born prematurely? They have tons of health problems. Why is it not acceptable to just end it all so they will not struggle?

Traditionally, we allow abortions until 4-5 months and think that this is ok. Is it coincidence that around this time is when the mother is able to feel the baby moving around? This is when the mother is able to perceive the baby as being a living being. It was actually a being moving and growing inside of her from the moment of conception.

Once again, I don't think we can second guess God. The Bible reference usually used is Psalm 139:13-16. According to this, God has his hand on us from the moment we are formed in our mother's womb. This is my point of reference.

[LisaRx]

The other point that I would like to add is that God has not promised us a life without suffering. I do not believe that He wants to see us suffer, but I don't think that our existence on this earth is meant to revolve around how to avoid suffering at any cost. Kind of seems a little selfish...

I hate to see animals suffer, also. This summer, we had to put our beloved pet to sleep. He scaled the 6 ft fence when we were away for the evening and was hit by a car. He was paralyzed from his abdomen to his back feet. It was a horrible thing to witness. We made a decision that he would not have a good quality of life if we kept him alive. He would not be able to walk or play, go to the bathroom, stand on his own, etc. He was in pain. He could not be the animal that he was created to be, so a decision had to be made.

If the same had happened to one of my children, would we have put him to sleep? Absolutely not. Why? Because they were created to be a person, not a dog. I would have taken care of them in whatever way needed for the rest of their life. Why? Because I value them. I would give my life for them. God values people! Jesus gave his very life for people--a world full of sinful people!!

God has expressly given us authority over animals. We do not have the ability, nor the authority to make the same decisons about human life.

As Chris said, if 2 parents know that they will genetically produce an unhealthy child, I think that they should carefully consider adoption. This only makes sense.

[Anat]

As I said before - the decision on when to have an abortion is case-specific. It depends on the prognosis really. As far as I know premature babies can grow up to be healthy kids. Sometimes this is just not the case. Like I told Chris, I would personally differentiate between an embryo and a fetus (which has a nervous system). A fertilizes egg has no nervous system, feels no pain - is not a human being. It'a very simple at that stage.

By the way, did you know that in many cultures, including Judasim, there's a period of time after birth, where the newborn is not considered a person yet? In Judaism, you give the baby a name only when he's 8 days old. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, a baby that is less than 40 days of age does not receive a burial service, becasue he is not considered a person yet.

I'm not saying it's okay to go around killing babies. All I'm saying that the exact time of this being a person is not at inception, but somewhere later. When exactly is a a matter of interpretation. Personally, I see a difference between an embryo and a fetus. Others may think differently.

A fertilized egg is life - but it's not a person. It's life the same way a dog and a cat is life, not much more. It has the potential to turn into a human being, but it's not one yet.


I guess we would just have to agree to disagree :)

Anat

[TWTCommish]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...let's back this up for a second.

So you don't know when life begins? If you don't know when life begins, then how can you support abortion? Obviously we can all agree that once life has begun, once it is a person basically, it should not be aborted...but it sounds as if you're saying "I don't know when it's a person...but let people have abortions anyway."

If you don't know, then it seems rather careless to support it. I think this needs to be analyzed.

I'll tell you the difference between sperm and eggs and a recently conceived embryo: one has life, the other does not. Why does it have life? Because it is growing. Lots of abortions happen late enough that a small body has formed...and one of the more common procedures involves a poison which makes the small body writhe around before death. Very small, of course, but it's alive enough to move.

Keep in mind is starts moving around very early - if you ask me, something that moves on it's own is alive.

I go back to what Reagan said: if you're not sure about when life begins, how can you be so willing to risk it?

Here's something else to ponder: we've lost well over 30 million people to abortion...somehow I don't think that is God's will. Our parents all chose life. My parents were VERY poor when they had me...but they embraced me as their first child and I'm amazingly glad to be alive today...

Today, my parents are divorced, but both are re-married and both households are doing quite well - no more peanut butter and jelly everyday! Now, they could have thought "we're so poor, and a child is expensive...we can't have this baby, we'll have to wait until we're ready"...how were they to know I'd actually be raised in a successful household?

Don't risk it: no one will blame you for letting your baby have a chance to live.

[Anat]

Chris,

I said that there is a difference between a fertilized egg or an embryo and a fetus or a baby.

The first is alive but cannot be considered a person. Just the potential to become one. IMO, abortion at this stage is not much different then killing an ant (killing a cat or a dog may actually be worse).

The second has a nervous system and is capable of feeling. Therefore an abortion in this stage is less welcome.

I just said that I am willing to accept other defintions and that I realize that this is a cultural-psycological definitions - not an absolute fact. That's what I mean when I say I can't tell you for sure when life begins - it's a process and the exact definition along the line is a matter for debate (apparently :))

Anyways, I'm glad you're glad to be alive and that you were born and are happy with it. I really think I'll stop posting on this thread, though. I enjoyed the debate, but it's a dead-end. The same goes for the other thread we're discussing. I can't argue with your belief, not so I wish to. My beliefs are different, that's all.

Let's start some nice lighter threads, shall we?

{hat} - I love those smilies!

Anat

[In_His_Shadow]

Let me start my explaining these are my opinions and my experiences. I am a born again, spirit filled Christian as is my husband and both my daughters (17 and 23).

As far as my view of abortions goes I would imagine everyone can guess that I am pro-life. I would like you to read this statement from a nurse on one of the other newsgroups I frequent:

Yes, they do abortions at nine months. I live in Texas, where full term abortions are perfectly legal. You have to have a doctor's permission. If you tell the doctor that you are emotionally or financially or in some other way unable to care for a child, that it would not be good for you, than the baby is considered a threat and she must be granted an abortion.

If organs are needed for a transplant or research, the doctor removes vital organs from an incision in the back of the still living fetus, before completing the abortion. Otherwise, the doctor tears the body apart with forcepts, limb by limb. He suctions out the womb to make sure no small parts are left, as the assistant carefully reasembles the body to make sure it's all there. The doctor cuts open the back of the remaining scull and vacuums it's brain out, then colapses the scull for easy removal.



Now even if I wasn't a Christian I can't imagine how anyone can read this and can think this is anything other than murder. If you have to work that hard to kill something it was living. In my family I have 2 members that are adopted. One is now a teacher at a Christian school and the other has devoted his life to the Navy defending our rights and freedoms. They each were conceived by teenage moms. We don't know the particulars but I can only think how incredibly proud and thankful I am to these girls for allowing my family members life. Their spouses and children are grateful also. They chose not to make a bad situation worse.

In my family we have lost one cousin to cystic fibrosis. Now should he not have been allowed life. His life though short continues to affect and edify so many peoples even today. His courage and zest for life has taught so many people lessons that they still carry with them today. We also lost our 19 year old nephew (who's father is a preacher) this past fall to an electrical accident.

My point is life and death are Gods domain we have no right to interfere in either. I think we get so caught up on the here and now that we forget that this life is but a short stay on our way home. The death of my nephew has left our family grieving, but, only because we are still in our human skin and miss his presence here with us. Our hearts leap for joy that he has made the trip home and we will be joining him in a very short time.

[TWTCommish]

Anat: fair enough, but my point stands: if you're not SURE about when life begins, why are you willing to risk it? How about we teach people to take responsibility themselves? If you can't support the child, why not give it up for adoption? Lots of parents cannot have children, and yet people throw away the life that others so very much wish they could have.

Again: why are you willing to chance it if you admit a fetus is alive, and that you do not know when it's a person? Obviously you have an opinion on abortion: when should it be illegal?

[Dude111]

Abortion isnt illegial i dont think....

But i think if someone doesnt want thier baby they should get to FULL TERM and then place the baby for adoption AS SOON AS POSSIBLE... (Abortion is just awefull)