Proof of water on Mars?

[blinc]

This is so cool! Photos have led scientists to believe there may finally be evidence that there was water on Mars! Here's the story and if you click on the link, you can see the picture (and get the full story):

http://www.nasa.gov/newsinfo/marspics.html

Dec. 7, 2000--Layers in West Candor Chasma (FHA-01278)

This high-resolution picture from NASA’s Mars Global Surveyor was the first image received by imaging scientists that began to hint at a larger story of layered sedimentary rock on Mars. These patterns could very well indicate that the materials were deposited in a lake or shallow sea.

Click on the photo for a high resolution version of the image.

This Global Surveyor image reveals that the floor of western Candor Chasma at this location is indeed layered. What is most striking about the picture is the large number and uniformity of the layers, or beds. There are more than 100 beds in this area, and each has about the same thickness (estimated to be about 2 to 5 meters or about 2 to 5 yards). Each layer has a relatively smooth upper surface and each is hard enough to form steep cliffs at its margins.

Layers indicate change. The uniform pattern seen here, with beds of similar properties and thickness repeated more than one hundred times, suggest that the deposition of the materials that makes the layers was interrupted at regular or episodic intervals. Patterns like this, when found on Earth, usually indicate the presence of sediment deposited in dynamic, energetic, underwater environments.

[TTP]

Hmmm...interesting. {idea}
I'm going to sell Mars! {toothy}

[blinc]

I think it's fascinating... if there was water, then that means that there was also a temperature high enough to possibly support life forms, maybe even life forms similar to what is found here on earth. It's just such an interesting concept... especially since I've read theories that some of the lifeforms on earth could have originated from mars... an impact there could have sent microscopic particles into the air that eventually settled here on earth. It's another topic though, but I've always been enthralled with the possiblity that some form of life, even microbiotic in nature, could have existed on a planet this close to earth.

Wonder what happend to have caused such a drastic change in it's atmosphere... maybe a meteor?

[Zephyrus]

The temperature fluctiations on Mars are pretty radical for life to exist now on the surface, but perhaps the temperatures and conditions are more uniform under the surface...

On Earth, life has been found in every possible place, from -80 degrees Celsius on Antarctica to hydrothermal vents and even in volcanoes. This means that the organisms have adapted and survived in these conditions, not however that they evolved there...

I'm pretty sure they'll find some microbial life somewhere else in our Solar System, maybe even outside of it. The theory you were talking about is called Panspermia, and it is a possibility (and a very interesting one! :) ).

A meteor big enough (or maybe even a comet, since Mars is much closer to Jupiter which is the "vacuum cleaner" of our solar system) would blow the atmosphere into space...even if it hit our Earth!

[blinc]

Zephyrus, you're right! I saw a show on either TDC or TLC about the micro-organisms (?) in the underwater volcanic vents. Isn't that something? They had no idea that any type of life could exist in temperatures that high... seems like our species is finding out that there is a lot more possibilites then previously thought.

I remember just barely (since old age has set in over here) hearing a piece about how they now suspect that life could exist in the vacuum of space. Something about how it was thought impossible before, because of the deep cold, etc. If that's true, then who knows what life form may come riding in here on a comet/meteor some day? Although, if that's true it would have to be a mighty tough lifeform to survive the deep freeze of space and then the heat generated when passing through our atmosphere.

Ack, I'll shut up now, this whole topic just gets me going!! {toothy}

[jamesglewisf]

I saw this in the news. It is definetly interesting. One thing to note is that they said the strata are an indication of the existence of water. They are not proof.

http://www.m-w.com says that the scientific method is principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses Science is basically observation and drawing conclusions. Those conclusions or hypotheses are then tested to "prove" that they are true. Science is never 100% because there is always the possibility that later observations will reveal something different.

So what's my point? The photos could mean water. They might not.

[Zephyrus]

Since life has been found deep in the earth, in rocks...etc, it would be logical to conclude that there is a possibility that such life could exist elsewhere (i.e. in a rock). If an asteroid/meteor or anything else slammed into that planet, the rock would break away as debris and float through space. Inside it, the microorganism could very well survive in hibernation. When it comes through our atmosphere, the outside of the rock would become very hot and melt, effectively sealing off the inside...this being basically the way that they thought Martian fossils got here on the asteroid found in antarctica...very interesting indeed!

[blinc]

What if it hit like in a mountain range... do you think it could shatter and release the microbes Zephyrus? I really don't know all the technicalities of this... I'm not a scientist! {toothy} I do love to read about this stuff though and the possibilites, I think, are so enthralling.

Jim: I know it's only a possibility, that the evidence isn't solid... which is why I put a ? in the title of the thread, and "Photos have led scientists to believe there may finally"...

It's a possiblity, not a fact and I sure didn't mean to imply this was absolute proof! It's just evidence that they have been looking for, which if we were ever to be able to examine first hand, (actually go there) it may prove there was water on Mars. The stryations appear to be evidence... good evidence, if you ask me, that they could have been formed by a lake or other water scource.

Of course, since the atmosphere is different and we don't know what's happend to the surface over the millenia, there may be a completely different reason for the layered pattern. Perhaps the atmosphere is such that dust/dirt settled in that pattern purely by chance, after impacts from asteroids/meteors that threw up huge plumes of dust and dirt into Mars's atmosphere? Possibility of course... I don't think so, but that is my opinion only. ;)

[Zephyrus]

It's almost certain from plate tectonics/volcanic eruptions as well as surface scans of Mars that there was liquid water on Mars millions or perhaps billions of years ago.
In fact, one hypothesis suggests that approximately 4.5 billion years ago (the age of the Earth) the conditions on Mars were quite similar to those on Earth, and that microorganisms first evolved there. There is also growing evidence that the climate of Mars was drastically changed following a large asteroid or meteor impact around 2.5 billion y.a. The object was so big that it literally blew Mars' atmosphere into space, and such an impact would be more than enough to send rocks flying towards Earth in their millions! In that case, there is the possibility that we are all Martian by origin :)

[keithster]

We originated from Mars. Hmmmm. {alien}

So then the soup started cooking and these micro-organisms from Mars evolved into higher life forms. {homer}

[Zephyrus]

That's just part of the theory I mentioned earlier, Panspermia...

I think that it's just a question of time before they find microbes (or evidence of them) on another planet/moon other than ours. What it will do is sort of serve as a wake-up call to us, that we are not "unique" in this whole universe, because after all, we are very arrogant creatures :)

[keithster]

Well, finding micro-organisms is a far cry from finding intelligent life. I for one know that if they found an amoeba on Mars, I'd feel pretty secure in my arrogance. {toothy} If they found a Klingon on Mars, I'd probably bring myself down a notch or two. If they found lawyers or politicians on Mars, I'd still be arrogant.

I do have to wonder as it sounds like my 19 month old speaks Klingon. We adopted her from overseas, but maybe she was placed there. Oooooooh. It'd be easy for some alien to come in at night and leave her on the orphanage's doorstep. {alien}

The algorithms used in the huge "listening" dishes to search for intelligence in the universe are quite fascinating. They look for patterns among other things and are quite complex. It's sort of like you and I going for a hike, finding the foundation of an old building, and recognizing that it couldn't be a result of any random natural process. We did some simple versions of these algorithms in one class I took in college. It was fun.

[Zephyrus]

Yeah, I know!! It's quite amazing, I'm part of the SETI@Home search, but they don't even reveal the algorithm out of security reasons...but just watching it do all those calculations is pretty amazing in itself :)

[keithster]

Some say that the same patterns that indicate intelligence out there in the universe are being found at the molecular level in cells. Any thoughts on that?

[Zephyrus]

I don't understand what you mean by patterns indicating life in the universe...as far as I'm aware I don't think they've found any life :)

But in any case, if you study cells on the molecular level, you'll find something veeerrryyy complex indeed! It's really amazing how many things go on in just one cell, and we have trillions of them!

[keithster]

I didn't mean to imply that they've found life out there. What I was saying that the patterns we search for in the universe which indicate intelligent life and similar to the complex patterns we're finding at a molecular level in cells.

Very, very complex. Evidently, what happens in a single cell is more complex than any computer and computer program humans have created to date. Fascinating stuff. There's even built-in redundancy. It took humans a while to work that one nicely into computers.

[Zephyrus]

The cell is so amazingly complex that it is unbelievable to imagine how it can all work in unison over and over again! I'm studying this at uni and I never cease to be amazed!

The patterns of life they're looking for out there is basically anything that repeats itself at a frequency that is not synonymous with background noise. Usually it's at the frequency range of Hydrogen which scientists consider a universal element. They scan at what is known as the "water hole" of frequencies, those emitted by organisms which are alive. Very interesting indeed!